4 January 2008
[10:15] Fleep Tuque: I'm excited to hear about Extropia
[10:15] Cybergrrl Oh: Soph, thank you so much for being here
[10:15] Fleep Tuque: Always looking to learn from others' experiences.
[10:15] Cybergrrl Oh: Just so everyone knows - this is a small group of community builders
[10:15] Sloan Skjellerup: got it, kk ... talk smart, I'm listening ;-)
[10:16] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs and nods
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: it isn't a closed group - just more of an invitation group but we can all invite
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: We chat about our communities, others communities, community challenges
[10:16] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: Sort of a community builders support group but hopefully without too much drama
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[10:16] Fleep Tuque: NO DRAMA
[10:16] Fleep Tuque: Unless it's the good kind. ;)
[10:16] IYan Writer: No drama??!??
[10:16] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: Now most of us know Soph but we are still very much interested in learning more about Extropia
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: What is it, why did it form, that kind of thing
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: So I'll let Soph get started on filling us in!
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: And as we do in our roundtable, feel free to ask questions
[10:17] Fleep Tuque claps excitedly!
[10:17] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok - hi everyone, and thanks, CG for inviting me - I feel like I just graduated from the kids' table to the grownups'!
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: But I'll drop the gavel if we get too crazy!
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[10:17] Fleep Tuque: laugh
[10:17] Sloan Skjellerup: lol
[10:18] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Extropia got its start about six months ago -
[10:18] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: some of us started playing with the concept of a sim with a positive-future theme, as a counter to the dystopias that seemed to be everywhere
[10:18] Fleep Tuque: (Have any sort of website we can be browsing?)
[10:18] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: http://extropiacore.net - all our content is there
[10:18] Cybergrrl Oh: dystopia - hmmmm, definition please?
[10:18] Fleep Tuque: Excellent
[10:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: A view of the future as a dark, decayed place -
[10:19] Cybergrrl Oh: ahhhhh
[10:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: from Mad Max to Terminator -
[10:19] IYan Writer: not(utopia)
[10:19] Fleep Tuque: Some of the grungy urban post apocalyptic sims are dystopian
[10:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and that seemed to be pretty much all that was on offer in sims that were futuristic in concept
[10:19] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: The discussion team was my family of four, and we consulted and worked with a number of friends and acquaintances on ecocomics, theme, management, etc.
[10:20] Alanagh Recreant listens...
[10:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: On November 11 we launched the sim, along with the covenant -
[10:21] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: our basic concept is to provide a community for people who share a positive, progressive view of the future.
[10:21] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Our model is different from anything else we know of out there- and I read something like 30-40 covenants as background for co-writing ours.
[10:21] Cybergrrl Oh: Interesting
[10:22] Cybergrrl Oh: Just found the wikipedia definition of extropia
[10:22] Cybergrrl Oh: A techno-utopia in is a hypothetical ideal society, in which laws, government, and social conditions are solely operating for the benefit and well-being of all its citizens, set in the near- or far-future, when advanced science and technology will allow these ideal living standards to exist; for example, post scarcity, changes in human nature and the human condition, the absence of suffering and even the end of death. Several 20th and 21st century ideologies and movements, such as transhumanism and singularitarianism, have emerged promoting a form of techno-utopia as a reachable goal.
[10:22] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: That's a good definition for us -
[10:22] Fleep Tuque: This is much more formal than the Chilbo community standards, and we have a more local village feel than futuristic or sci-fi, but I think we share very common goals/outlooks in our community.
[10:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one of my hobby horses is the view that managment solutions that were developed in conditions of material and information scarcity are grossly inapplicable in synthetic worlds
[10:23] Fleep Tuque: Exciting to see others doing the same kind of work from different perspectives and aesthetics.
[10:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, we *seriously* need to sit down and chat sometime!
[10:23] Fleep Tuque: It looks like it!
[10:23] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm fascinated by the transhumanism and singularitarianism aspect
[10:23] IYan Writer: so what will replace the old management solutions?
[10:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We see three different approaches right now to community formation -
[10:24] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan, let's definitely talk about that - I'd like to get a bit of the basics out first for the people who *don't* have a history on this -
[10:24] Cybergrrl Oh: yes, basics are good!
[10:24] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan is more advanced than me!
[10:24] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: One is the Caledon approach - open residency, minimal infrastructue - basically land baron plus theme and community events
[10:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one is Al Andalus - all owner-created content, and tools for an emergent discussion community
[10:25] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We're in the middle - our goal is about 25% owner-created infrastructure per sim, for facilities to enable resident interaction,
[10:25] Sloan Skjellerup: how much land are you working with?
[10:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: carefully managed growth through a system of references, and social tools.
[10:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Right now, Sloan, just our first sim.
[10:26] Sloan Skjellerup: ahh, never mind, I was going to say do both and monitor the differences
[10:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We're expecting to bring the second online in February
[10:26] Sloan Skjellerup: but you have that thought already
[10:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and grow to 4-6 within the quarter, then pause and evaluate our progress and systems
[10:26] Cybergrrl Oh: interesting
[10:26] Cybergrrl Oh: exciting
[10:26] Sloan Skjellerup: kk, I'm listening
[10:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, IYan and I have a deep conceptual disagreement on managment, and I'm happy to go there - but I'd like to get any basic questions answered first -
[10:27] Cybergrrl Oh: So who "runs" extropia?
[10:27] Fleep Tuque: Apx how many resident participants do you have right now?
[10:27] Cybergrrl Oh: or is that the wrong way to say it?
[10:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, two excellent questions!
[10:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'll take the easy one first :P
[10:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, we have 14 resident "Citizens" - people renting land from us, 100 people in the Extropians group, and probably oh 30 who hang out a significant amount of time per week.
[10:28] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG - that's a vexing question.
[10:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Ultimately, title to the sim is in Galatea Gynoid's name, with all the limitations that applies under the SL land system.
[10:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Management, such as it is, is in a board of 4 currently - Galatea as Chairman,
[10:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: me handling marketing and external relations,
[10:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Vidal Tripsa for public building and cultural events,
[10:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and Argent Bury for Board processes and as internal judge/arbitrator
[10:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We're currently doing a thorough evaluation of roles, titles, and processes based on our first 6 weeks of operations.
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: Should we move to IYan's question
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: seems like a good seway
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: seway
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: can't spell segway
[10:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: For those of you who like political theory, there's a discussion here: http://sophrosyne-sl.livejournal.com/50370.html?view=276674#t276674
[10:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs and nods
[10:31] Fleep Tuque: Excellent, thank you. :)
[10:32] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: The short answer to IYan's question is, in a sense Extropia is an experiment to generate answers to that question.
[10:32] Alanagh Recreant apologises for the facial expressions... testing a new hud!
[10:32] Alanagh Recreant: hehe
[10:32] Eric Reuters accepted your inventory offer.
[10:33] Alanagh Recreant settles down...
[10:33] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan can you expand more on your question?
[10:33] Fleep Tuque: You said that you both had a philosophical disagreement about management issues, I'm hoping you will articulate. :)
[10:33] IYan Writer: perhaps a clarification: I do not care what the management tecqniques are - I firmbly believe that the rules of conduct and administration should be open to community members
[10:33] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, good one
[10:33] IYan Writer: if you are building a community. if you are renting space, do whatever
[10:33] IYan Writer: I like the covenant here, for example
[10:33] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK - I *seriously* don't want to put words into IYan's mouth -
[10:33] Fleep Tuque: As an advocate of consensus based management, thorny questions about decision making problems fascinate me.
[10:33] Cybergrrl Oh agrees
[10:33] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but I think a capsule might be -
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan looks to process-based solutions,
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and I look to person-based solutions
[10:34] Fleep Tuque: Ah ok.
[10:34] IYan Writer: more about my views on running a community: http://iyanwriter.blogspot.com/2007/12/so-you-want-to-be-benevolent-dictator.html
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: as a cartoon start - IYan, how's that?
[10:34] Fleep Tuque: I am more person-based, as well.
[10:34] IYan Writer: cartoon start?
[10:34] Fleep Tuque: Thanks IYan
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: a very very general intro
[10:34] Cybergrrl Oh: What is another way of saying process-based vs. person-based.
[10:34] Grace McDunnough: There are no processes without people, and people are not happy without process
[10:34] Cybergrrl Oh: To me person-based sounds riskier - emotional pitfalls...?
[10:34] Grace McDunnough: The versus here is troubling
[10:35] iAlja Writer nods at Grace
[10:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Grace, true. Neither can be absolutes -
[10:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but a matter of weight of one over the other.
[10:35] Fleep Tuque: Well I see it as continuum, not dichotomy
[10:35] Cybergrrl Oh: finding the balance must be tricky
[10:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Oh gods, yes!
[10:35] Fleep Tuque: For simple decisions, a process CAN be the answer.
[10:35] iAlja Writer: perhaps we can define these terms better Soph?
[10:35] IYan Writer: (hi Eric)
[10:35] Fleep Tuque: For more complex resolution, process can't do what people can do.
[10:36] Fleep Tuque: Hi Eric, nice to see you again. :)
[10:36] Grace McDunnough: So what are the extensible limitations of a community that leans more heavily toward the person side/ (and I might need a more clear definition of that)
[10:36] Alanagh Recreant nods friendly to Eric
[10:36] Alanagh Recreant: brb... Kenia in news
[10:36] iAlja Writer waves at Eric
[10:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan - you're vastly more experienced than I am - would you want to set out your views concisely, and then I'll have something to compare and contrast?
[10:36] Cybergrrl Oh waves at Eric
[10:36] Eric Reuters: hi everyone. sorry I'm late.
[10:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Eric, hi!
[10:36] IYan Writer: http://iyanwriter.blogspot.com/2007/12/so-you-want-to-be-benevolent-dictator.html - says it all
[10:36] Fleep Tuque: (Reading that now)
[10:36] Grace McDunnough waves a mallet at Eric .. in a congenial way
[10:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: as does my post here: http://sophrosyne-sl.livejournal.com/50370.html?view=276674#t276674
[10:37] IYan Writer: basically - be open, treat users right, don't get in fights, abide by the rules
[10:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: And mine is, process is best in conditions of impersonality and high transaction costs -
[10:37] Grace McDunnough: OMG Soph, I so cannot read your new format ... it's lovely but readability is um lower
[10:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: while not appropriate for social networks with minimal costs of information access and arriving/leavning
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Really, Grace - the colors?
[10:38] Grace McDunnough: Yes
[10:38] Cybergrrl Oh: I think my big question is - when something goes wrong, who takes care of it and what can be done? Are there rules in the convenant for example explaining the process or is it a case by case basis decided by the people of the community
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'll change it - thanks for letting me know
[10:38] iAlja Writer: what process are we talking about here?
[10:38] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm always worried what to do if something went wrong on Athena Isle, for example.
[10:38] IYan Writer: soph: as is your right - we'll talk again when extropia reaches 200 citizens. i think your views might be changed
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We have a system currently in the covenant -
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan, totally fair - and I agree.
[10:38] Alanagh Recreant: / ...back...
[10:39] Fleep Tuque: Chilbo has yet to create a firm covenant in part because we have not yet reached.. IYAn just said it .. the point where scalability is an issue.
[10:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'm very leery of our scaling past a tribal size of 150 or so
[10:39] Grace McDunnough: Well other than being the magic Dunbar number
[10:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and should we choose to do so, we may well need new institutiaons-
[10:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Dunbar number?
[10:39] iAlja Writer: Fleep: how big is Chilbo?
[10:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Grace, that's the thought, at least as a rough marker
[10:39] Grace McDunnough: I think there is the issue of Echo Chamber
[10:39] Fleep Tuque: I think process becomes much more necessary when you reach a certain level of membership, it just becomes impossible to adjudicate everything by consensus or intuition
[10:39] IYan Writer: agreed Fleep
[10:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Echo Chamber?
[10:39] Cybergrrl Oh feels so unread
[10:39] Fleep Tuque: We have between 50 - 60 active residents
[10:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: What we're hoping for is a system of local consensus decisionmaking with an appellate layer above that to scale
[10:40] Cybergrrl Oh feels so nonacademic
[10:40] Fleep Tuque: Much more inactive or occasional
[10:40] IYan Writer: CB: grace has a great blog post on dunbar's numbers, I7ll find the link
[10:40] Cybergrrl Oh: oh yes please!
[10:40] Grace McDunnough: http://phasinggrace.blogspot.com/2007/08/dunbars-number-groups-in-second-life.html
[10:40] Cybergrrl Oh: ty
[10:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: so, we have a position of "node" or local adjudicator at the sim level, who's elected
[10:40] Fleep Tuque: Echo Chamber = self-selected group of like-minded people who can't see the forrest cause you're all in the same copse of trees. :)
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and the prospect of appeal to an elected director of citizen affairs, and from there to the Chairman
[10:41] Cybergrrl Oh: ty
[10:41] Grace McDunnough: Thanks Fleep
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, a *very* serious concern -
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and one of the options we're considering strongly is a board of external advisors with significantly different persepctives.
[10:41] Fleep Tuque: Ah yes, loved that post Grace.
[10:41] Fleep Tuque: Good food for thought
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Yeps, Grace, I got a lot from that.
[10:41] Cybergrrl Oh: external advisors - interesting
[10:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Would that include non SL folks, too?
[10:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: It seems a natural for us - building ties to other communities is a critical part of our mission
[10:42] Fleep Tuque: Now that would be difficult to imagine for me, external to SL advisors
[10:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG - I hadn't considered that, but it's an interesting thought -
[10:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: my first reaction, is, if you don't know the medium, I'm not interested.
[10:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - but that could add something else entirely that could be of value
[10:43] Grace McDunnough: One thing about your community Soph, if I may .. is that in terms of social structures and beliefs - it is still non-mainstream
[10:43] Cybergrrl Oh: We tend to be so immersed in SL-centricity that we might forget there are some wheels invented outside that can still be useful
[10:43] IYan Writer: ty Fleep :)
[10:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Frex, I've read of a graduate student who's writing a constitution for virtual worlds, but has never set foot in one. I would find his views of limited utility
[10:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hang on a sec while I catch up -
[10:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, Grace - could you run with that a bit?
[10:43] Grace McDunnough: Academics often .. reach :winks:
[10:44] Fleep Tuque: I think I have to agree, Soph, laugh! And Grace, I'll say as an academic. :)
[10:44] Grace McDunnough: Oh, sure. The points is, that Extropia - the core - is of a mindset toward digitality. While we may think that concept is widespread, it has not reached mainstream yet.
[10:44] Fleep Tuque: No where near mainstream yet.
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: Not even remotely close.
[10:45] Cybergrrl Oh: I'd love more information about digitality.
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I agree -
[10:45] Alanagh Recreant: devil's advocate question... is a constitution or covenant nececcary?
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Ally -
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I think yes, for two reasons -
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: That's been a topic of great debate in Chilbo
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: :)
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one, for the necessity of managing the property per LL requirements
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: For the moment we have community guidelines, specifically NOT a constitution or covenant.
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: two - we're not an open town
[10:46] Sloan Skjellerup: kk, just steped back in and I'm catching up
[10:46] Sloan Skjellerup: sorry
[10:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: we're a community founded on a concept, and only open to those who subscribe to that concept
[10:46] Grace McDunnough: WB Sloan
[10:46] Cybergrrl Oh: How do you determine who you will allow into your "town" - how do you know they subscribe?
[10:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: so, what we are and aren't at a fundamental level needs to be set out clealry
[10:46] Cybergrrl Oh: what is the vetting process I guess is what I'm asking
[10:46] Fleep Tuque: Interested in that answer too, we've run into issues with that
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We require two references from current Citizens - a process we were a bit slack about in starting
[10:47] Fleep Tuque: Folks who say they get the picture and then very clearly do not.
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and encurage people to attend events, get to know Citizens, first
[10:47] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: it's not foolproof, but I don't know that anything would be
[10:47] Fleep Tuque: Involvement seems to be the best predictor.
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: it sorts people who just want real estate -
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes, exactly, Fleep
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: Engagement for its own sake, I want to see potential members involved with the community because they enjoy it before they join it.
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: we didn't want a barrier too high, or that would eliminate, frex, people more shy that I might be,
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes, exactly!
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, did I miss anyone's question?
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: Soph
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: your tier scheme is intended to break even?
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: to profit?
[10:48] Cybergrrl Oh: <---moderator is slacking
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag sighs
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: or is it being funded by core members
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I dream of breaking even -
[10:49] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:49] Fleep Tuque: laugh!
[10:49] Fleep Tuque: us too
[10:49] Cybergrrl Oh: don't we all!
[10:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: right now, it's being underwritten by core members -
[10:49] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: sim purchase won't be covered, and we're underwriting the 25% of the sim that's community space
[10:49] Cybergrrl Oh: Q: Do those who are underwriting get special privleges or power because of the money invested? have an expectation of some kind?
[10:49] Fleep Tuque: Another question, have you set up transfer mechanisms (technical, procedural, real world) should your main landowner get hit by a bus?
[10:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: so, yes, Gala and I are both in for about $400kL and a hundred or so $USD/month
[10:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep! aak, no, we totally missed that - thank you!
[10:50] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:50] Fleep Tuque: That's been something we just addressed in the past few months.
[10:50] Cybergrrl Oh: hopefully not because they were hit by a bus!
[10:50] Fleep Tuque: I really worried about what would happen to the community if something happened to me.
[10:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We've made a very small start, in creating an accounting av along the SL Africa model, but there's a lot we need to address there!
[10:50] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:50] Fleep Tuque: It's very complex issue in SL terms
[10:51] Fleep Tuque: Perhaps a discussion for another time.
[10:51] Fleep Tuque: But sustainability, transferability, I think those are key things to consider in virtual community building.
[10:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: What we'd probably do is put everything in the name of that av, "Extropia Republic," and share passwords, or make them available through escrow for an emergency - but I'm speculating
[10:51] Fleep Tuque: Paarticularly one that values anonymity
[10:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods @Fleep
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: I've done that - taking SL Africa's lead, too
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: If you don't know RL identity of core members, the assets they hold.. well.
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: AthenaIsle Republic
[10:52] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag smiles and nods at CG
[10:52] iAlja Writer: yep, that's the usual procedure
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: (Still officially against the SL ToS or no? I never know the answer)
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: Is there a book or blog that spells out this kind of procedure?
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: I am writing one!
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: :)
[10:52] Alanagh Recreant: brb
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: I would not have known what to do if it wasn't for Ally's work
[10:53] Cybergrrl Oh: yay Fleep!
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh, Fleep, we *so* have to talk!
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
[10:53] Kada Singh accepted your inventory offer.
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: Working on the first annual Chilbo report, that's a key section
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: Sure you all will hear about it when I get it finished. :)
[10:53] iAlja Writer: will it be available publicky Fleep?
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: Yes
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hm, quarterly and annual reports - *very* good idea!
[10:53] iAlja Writer: great :)
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: we're all about open source
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nodsnods
[10:53] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - we should have you as a guest speaker to talk about it, too - and I'm sure we'd all love to help somehow
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes!
[10:54] IYan Writer nods at CB
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: One of the things that I am hoping to see happen here is..
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: not sure how to describe
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: A network of affinity communities
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes!
[10:54] Cybergrrl Oh: yes - absolutely
[10:54] Grace McDunnough: A federation :)
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: So if a resident comes to Chilbo but really has a sci-fi bent, I can say hey, Extropia might be a better fit for you
[10:54] IYan Writer: United federation of sims.
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: Community profiles, so we can direct people to where they will TRULY find their niche
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: As we grow enough that I can shed hats, I'd like that to be my full job for Extropia-
[10:54] Cybergrrl Oh: I'd love to have representatives from diverse communities here
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yesyes, Fleep!
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG, you need to get Michel Manen here!
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: I could definitely help with that on the Community Builders blog
[10:55] Fleep Tuque: Work phone call afk one sec
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: directory that is
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Who is Michel Manen?
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh swears she isn't an ignoramus
[10:55] IYan Writer: you're on voice fleep ;)
[10:55] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Michel's the founder of Al Andalus - which is trying to build a progressive Islamic community in SL
[10:55] Fleep Tuque: Woops!
[10:55] Fleep Tuque: Thanks. :)
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, right
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: you had him as a guest?
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We opened an embassy there last week, and Michel and I will be doing a number of events uniting our two communities
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Yes
[10:56] Cybergrrl Oh: interesting
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: Hmm Embassies
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: that's an interesting concept
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: I like that idea.
[10:56] Cybergrrl Oh: Well, I'm open to suggestions - I'd like this group to be useful to us all
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We wanted to support their work - so we bought a small property
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: Also Cyber, Spin Martin of the Saijo City project might be another guest speaker
[10:56] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm just being a big sponge right now, soaking in the wisdom and experiences
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and - shhh - it's a place for the Board to meet without the constant drop-ins we get in Extropia
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: His theme is.. living fiction community..
[10:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'd thought they were pretty much gone from SL
[10:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Saijo is a fascinating concept, and I'd love to talk with him -
[10:57] Cybergrrl Oh: living fiction community?
[10:57] Grace McDunnough: Saijo is waning, I'd say
[10:57] Fleep Tuque: I might have missed it, I know he was exploring with Kaneva, wants it to span more than one virtual world.
[10:57] Fleep Tuque: Ah ok
[10:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: My understanding is, it's not exactly an RP community, but one with a deep backstory
[10:57] Fleep Tuque: So much to keep up with!
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and yes, a community across worlds and media
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: At some point, I'd love for us to talk about other virtual worlds
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yesyes!
[10:58] Grace McDunnough: Soph, do you consider Extropia a RP community?
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: Well, that's something I was discussing with some others
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: I just got a book deal to write about marketing across virtual worlds
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: No, absolutely not.
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: I'm thinking of organizing field trips
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: good question Soph!
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: to other virtual worlds.
[10:58] Joi Koi accepted your inventory offer.
[10:58] Joi Koi accepted your inventory offer.
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: yay for field trips!
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, I'd love that!
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: I think it would be MUCH more fun to go explore and learn together than to do it individually
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm picking up my new PC so I can get onto other worlds - none of them support mac except sl
[10:58] IYan Writer: wb ally :)
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: And somehow I keep not making time to go "check out" whatever new one pops up.
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Grace, we may build out a fictional backstory, and play with that a bit, but we'll never be RP in any way
[10:59] Alanagh Recreant: / thanks ;)
[10:59] iAlja Writer: ertainly Fleep! I feel so confused in these other worlds all on my own, surrounded by teenagers usually ;)
[10:59] Cybergrrl Oh: RP - is roleplaing?
[10:59] Fleep Tuque: (Capitalizing on the academic concept of learning communities, you gain deeper knowledge when learning in a cohort than alone)
[10:59] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: (and, we are *so not* an RP government, which I want to say explicity!)
[10:59] Cybergrrl Oh: ah yes
[10:59] Grace McDunnough: I ask, because .. RP communities invest in stories - to create a sense of cummunal understanding
[10:59] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, I think that would be fantastic
[10:59] Alanagh Recreant smiles at Cybergrrl... RP is roleplay yes
[11:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I agree, Grace, which i s why we may include backstory elements -
[11:00] Cybergrrl Oh: yes, gotta remember the acronyms!
[11:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one, that's something that interests Argent, and two,
[11:00] Grace McDunnough: New concepts, new structures lack that historical reference for grounding
[11:00] iAlja Writer: when are you planning to do that Soph?
[11:00] Fleep Tuque: Nod, we're not RP either, but we are creating something of a community history to provide that backstory
[11:00] Fleep Tuque: to transmit cultural ideals
[11:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: both Vidal and I have gotten a bit of the importance of that in community building from the games design literature
[11:00] Cybergrrl Oh: Backstory elements - what might those be?
[11:00] Fleep Tuque nods at Grace.
[11:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG, Gala has a concept in mind -
[11:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: that there's a fictional Extropia that "was" founded at some point -
[11:01] Alanagh Recreant: Sophrosyne... are you familiar with the ideas of synectics? And are these used in your community?
[11:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Oh, CG, great- I'd love to have a record of this -
[11:01] Cybergrrl Oh: Synectics?
[11:02] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Ally -no, never heard the term
[11:02] Cybergrrl Oh: Absolutely!
[11:02] Alanagh Recreant: Maggie ;)
[11:02] Alanagh Recreant: ...central principle... "Trust things that are alien, and alienate things that are trusted."
[11:02] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ahhh!
[11:02] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: that sounds----- congenial :)
[11:02] Maggie Marat: hehe
[11:03] Fleep Tuque: laugh
[11:03] Alanagh Recreant: ...but there is an entire methodology around it, mostly linked to solving problems
[11:03] Alanagh Recreant: :P
[11:03] IYan Writer: "Better bad and new than old and good" - berthold brecht
[11:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: If you've got any references or links, I'd love them
[11:03] Fleep Tuque: Will have to investigate that
[11:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: my reading list is insane.... :)
[11:03] Grace McDunnough: That does not apply to wine, .. btw
[11:03] Alanagh Recreant: we use it a lot in communities
[11:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
[11:03] Fleep Tuque: Sounds interesting, but perhaps a little throwing baby out with bathwater?
[11:04] Alanagh Recreant: / sit Maggie :)
[11:04] Cybergrrl Oh: I must run to a RL meeting - feel free to stay and chat and network a bit. And if you say anything interesting, please save and send to me!
[11:04] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh, and also, I don' think it needs to be said here, but still -
[11:04] Fleep Tuque: One of the things I worry about is lost knowledge, that there is the potential for such a radically rapid departure to digital systems that we'll lose knowledge and wisdom in the transition.
[11:04] Cybergrrl Oh: I stopped tracking at "baby out with bathwater!"
[11:05] IYan Writer: thanks for hosting this, CB
[11:05] Maggie Marat: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/courses/ET650_online/MAPPS/Synectics.html
[11:05] Cybergrrl Oh: bye all
