At Long Last! Sophrosyne Stenvaag Transcript

I'm ashamed to say how long it has been since the lovely Sophrosyne Stenvaag stopped by the Community Builders Virtual Worlds meeting (held Fridays at 10am on Athena Isle). But here, finally, is the transcript where she speaks about Extropia, a vibrant and growing community on Second Life.

4 January 2008

[10:15] Fleep Tuque: I'm excited to hear about Extropia
[10:15] Cybergrrl Oh: Soph, thank you so much for being here
[10:15] Fleep Tuque: Always looking to learn from others' experiences.
[10:15] Cybergrrl Oh: Just so everyone knows - this is a small group of community builders
[10:15] Sloan Skjellerup: got it, kk ... talk smart, I'm listening ;-)
[10:16] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs and nods



[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: it isn't a closed group - just more of an invitation group but we can all invite
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: We chat about our communities, others communities, community challenges
[10:16] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: Sort of a community builders support group but hopefully without too much drama
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[10:16] Fleep Tuque: NO DRAMA
[10:16] Fleep Tuque: Unless it's the good kind. ;)
[10:16] IYan Writer: No drama??!??
[10:16] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
[10:16] Cybergrrl Oh: Now most of us know Soph but we are still very much interested in learning more about Extropia
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: What is it, why did it form, that kind of thing
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: So I'll let Soph get started on filling us in!
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: And as we do in our roundtable, feel free to ask questions
[10:17] Fleep Tuque claps excitedly!
[10:17] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok - hi everyone, and thanks, CG for inviting me - I feel like I just graduated from the kids' table to the grownups'!
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: But I'll drop the gavel if we get too crazy!
[10:17] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[10:17] Fleep Tuque: laugh
[10:17] Sloan Skjellerup: lol
[10:18] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Extropia got its start about six months ago -
[10:18] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: some of us started playing with the concept of a sim with a positive-future theme, as a counter to the dystopias that seemed to be everywhere
[10:18] Fleep Tuque: (Have any sort of website we can be browsing?)
[10:18] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: http://extropiacore.net - all our content is there
[10:18] Cybergrrl Oh: dystopia - hmmmm, definition please?
[10:18] Fleep Tuque: Excellent
[10:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: A view of the future as a dark, decayed place -
[10:19] Cybergrrl Oh: ahhhhh
[10:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: from Mad Max to Terminator -
[10:19] IYan Writer: not(utopia)
[10:19] Fleep Tuque: Some of the grungy urban post apocalyptic sims are dystopian
[10:19] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and that seemed to be pretty much all that was on offer in sims that were futuristic in concept
[10:19] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: The discussion team was my family of four, and we consulted and worked with a number of friends and acquaintances on ecocomics, theme, management, etc.
[10:20] Alanagh Recreant listens...
[10:20] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: On November 11 we launched the sim, along with the covenant -
[10:21] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: our basic concept is to provide a community for people who share a positive, progressive view of the future.
[10:21] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Our model is different from anything else we know of out there- and I read something like 30-40 covenants as background for co-writing ours.
[10:21] Cybergrrl Oh: Interesting
[10:22] Cybergrrl Oh: Just found the wikipedia definition of extropia
[10:22] Cybergrrl Oh: A techno-utopia in is a hypothetical ideal society, in which laws, government, and social conditions are solely operating for the benefit and well-being of all its citizens, set in the near- or far-future, when advanced science and technology will allow these ideal living standards to exist; for example, post scarcity, changes in human nature and the human condition, the absence of suffering and even the end of death. Several 20th and 21st century ideologies and movements, such as transhumanism and singularitarianism, have emerged promoting a form of techno-utopia as a reachable goal.
[10:22] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: That's a good definition for us -
[10:22] Fleep Tuque: This is much more formal than the Chilbo community standards, and we have a more local village feel than futuristic or sci-fi, but I think we share very common goals/outlooks in our community.
[10:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one of my hobby horses is the view that managment solutions that were developed in conditions of material and information scarcity are grossly inapplicable in synthetic worlds
[10:23] Fleep Tuque: Exciting to see others doing the same kind of work from different perspectives and aesthetics.
[10:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, we *seriously* need to sit down and chat sometime!
[10:23] Fleep Tuque: It looks like it!
[10:23] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm fascinated by the transhumanism and singularitarianism aspect
[10:23] IYan Writer: so what will replace the old management solutions?
[10:23] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We see three different approaches right now to community formation -
[10:24] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan, let's definitely talk about that - I'd like to get a bit of the basics out first for the people who *don't* have a history on this -
[10:24] Cybergrrl Oh: yes, basics are good!
[10:24] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan is more advanced than me!
[10:24] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: One is the Caledon approach - open residency, minimal infrastructue - basically land baron plus theme and community events
[10:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one is Al Andalus - all owner-created content, and tools for an emergent discussion community
[10:25] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We're in the middle - our goal is about 25% owner-created infrastructure per sim, for facilities to enable resident interaction,
[10:25] Sloan Skjellerup: how much land are you working with?
[10:25] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: carefully managed growth through a system of references, and social tools.
[10:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Right now, Sloan, just our first sim.
[10:26] Sloan Skjellerup: ahh, never mind, I was going to say do both and monitor the differences
[10:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We're expecting to bring the second online in February
[10:26] Sloan Skjellerup: but you have that thought already
[10:26] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and grow to 4-6 within the quarter, then pause and evaluate our progress and systems
[10:26] Cybergrrl Oh: interesting
[10:26] Cybergrrl Oh: exciting
[10:26] Sloan Skjellerup: kk, I'm listening
[10:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, IYan and I have a deep conceptual disagreement on managment, and I'm happy to go there - but I'd like to get any basic questions answered first -
[10:27] Cybergrrl Oh: So who "runs" extropia?
[10:27] Fleep Tuque: Apx how many resident participants do you have right now?
[10:27] Cybergrrl Oh: or is that the wrong way to say it?
[10:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, two excellent questions!
[10:27] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'll take the easy one first :P
[10:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, we have 14 resident "Citizens" - people renting land from us, 100 people in the Extropians group, and probably oh 30 who hang out a significant amount of time per week.
[10:28] Fleep Tuque nods.



[10:28] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG - that's a vexing question.
[10:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Ultimately, title to the sim is in Galatea Gynoid's name, with all the limitations that applies under the SL land system.
[10:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Management, such as it is, is in a board of 4 currently - Galatea as Chairman,
[10:29] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: me handling marketing and external relations,
[10:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Vidal Tripsa for public building and cultural events,
[10:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and Argent Bury for Board processes and as internal judge/arbitrator
[10:30] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We're currently doing a thorough evaluation of roles, titles, and processes based on our first 6 weeks of operations.
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: Should we move to IYan's question
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: seems like a good seway
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: seway
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[10:31] Cybergrrl Oh: can't spell segway
[10:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: For those of you who like political theory, there's a discussion here: http://sophrosyne-sl.livejournal.com/50370.html?view=276674#t276674
[10:31] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs and nods
[10:31] Fleep Tuque: Excellent, thank you. :)
[10:32] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: The short answer to IYan's question is, in a sense Extropia is an experiment to generate answers to that question.
[10:32] Alanagh Recreant apologises for the facial expressions... testing a new hud!
[10:32] Alanagh Recreant: hehe
[10:32] Eric Reuters accepted your inventory offer.
[10:33] Alanagh Recreant settles down...
[10:33] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan can you expand more on your question?
[10:33] Fleep Tuque: You said that you both had a philosophical disagreement about management issues, I'm hoping you will articulate. :)
[10:33] IYan Writer: perhaps a clarification: I do not care what the management tecqniques are - I firmbly believe that the rules of conduct and administration should be open to community members
[10:33] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, good one
[10:33] IYan Writer: if you are building a community. if you are renting space, do whatever
[10:33] IYan Writer: I like the covenant here, for example
[10:33] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK - I *seriously* don't want to put words into IYan's mouth -
[10:33] Fleep Tuque: As an advocate of consensus based management, thorny questions about decision making problems fascinate me.
[10:33] Cybergrrl Oh agrees
[10:33] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but I think a capsule might be -
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan looks to process-based solutions,
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and I look to person-based solutions
[10:34] Fleep Tuque: Ah ok.
[10:34] IYan Writer: more about my views on running a community: http://iyanwriter.blogspot.com/2007/12/so-you-want-to-be-benevolent-dictator.html
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: as a cartoon start - IYan, how's that?
[10:34] Fleep Tuque: I am more person-based, as well.
[10:34] IYan Writer: cartoon start?
[10:34] Fleep Tuque: Thanks IYan
[10:34] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: a very very general intro
[10:34] Cybergrrl Oh: What is another way of saying process-based vs. person-based.
[10:34] Grace McDunnough: There are no processes without people, and people are not happy without process
[10:34] Cybergrrl Oh: To me person-based sounds riskier - emotional pitfalls...?
[10:34] Grace McDunnough: The versus here is troubling
[10:35] iAlja Writer nods at Grace
[10:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Grace, true. Neither can be absolutes -
[10:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: but a matter of weight of one over the other.
[10:35] Fleep Tuque: Well I see it as continuum, not dichotomy
[10:35] Cybergrrl Oh: finding the balance must be tricky
[10:35] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Oh gods, yes!
[10:35] Fleep Tuque: For simple decisions, a process CAN be the answer.
[10:35] iAlja Writer: perhaps we can define these terms better Soph?
[10:35] IYan Writer: (hi Eric)
[10:35] Fleep Tuque: For more complex resolution, process can't do what people can do.
[10:36] Fleep Tuque: Hi Eric, nice to see you again. :)
[10:36] Grace McDunnough: So what are the extensible limitations of a community that leans more heavily toward the person side/ (and I might need a more clear definition of that)
[10:36] Alanagh Recreant nods friendly to Eric
[10:36] Alanagh Recreant: brb... Kenia in news
[10:36] iAlja Writer waves at Eric
[10:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan - you're vastly more experienced than I am - would you want to set out your views concisely, and then I'll have something to compare and contrast?
[10:36] Cybergrrl Oh waves at Eric
[10:36] Eric Reuters: hi everyone. sorry I'm late.
[10:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Eric, hi!
[10:36] IYan Writer: http://iyanwriter.blogspot.com/2007/12/so-you-want-to-be-benevolent-dictator.html - says it all
[10:36] Fleep Tuque: (Reading that now)
[10:36] Grace McDunnough waves a mallet at Eric .. in a congenial way
[10:36] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: as does my post here: http://sophrosyne-sl.livejournal.com/50370.html?view=276674#t276674
[10:37] IYan Writer: basically - be open, treat users right, don't get in fights, abide by the rules
[10:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: And mine is, process is best in conditions of impersonality and high transaction costs -
[10:37] Grace McDunnough: OMG Soph, I so cannot read your new format ... it's lovely but readability is um lower
[10:37] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: while not appropriate for social networks with minimal costs of information access and arriving/leavning
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Really, Grace - the colors?
[10:38] Grace McDunnough: Yes
[10:38] Cybergrrl Oh: I think my big question is - when something goes wrong, who takes care of it and what can be done? Are there rules in the convenant for example explaining the process or is it a case by case basis decided by the people of the community
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'll change it - thanks for letting me know
[10:38] iAlja Writer: what process are we talking about here?
[10:38] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm always worried what to do if something went wrong on Athena Isle, for example.
[10:38] IYan Writer: soph: as is your right - we'll talk again when extropia reaches 200 citizens. i think your views might be changed
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We have a system currently in the covenant -
[10:38] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: IYan, totally fair - and I agree.
[10:38] Alanagh Recreant: / ...back...
[10:39] Fleep Tuque: Chilbo has yet to create a firm covenant in part because we have not yet reached.. IYAn just said it .. the point where scalability is an issue.
[10:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'm very leery of our scaling past a tribal size of 150 or so
[10:39] Grace McDunnough: Well other than being the magic Dunbar number
[10:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and should we choose to do so, we may well need new institutiaons-
[10:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Dunbar number?
[10:39] iAlja Writer: Fleep: how big is Chilbo?
[10:39] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Grace, that's the thought, at least as a rough marker
[10:39] Grace McDunnough: I think there is the issue of Echo Chamber
[10:39] Fleep Tuque: I think process becomes much more necessary when you reach a certain level of membership, it just becomes impossible to adjudicate everything by consensus or intuition
[10:39] IYan Writer: agreed Fleep
[10:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Echo Chamber?
[10:39] Cybergrrl Oh feels so unread
[10:39] Fleep Tuque: We have between 50 - 60 active residents
[10:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: What we're hoping for is a system of local consensus decisionmaking with an appellate layer above that to scale
[10:40] Cybergrrl Oh feels so nonacademic
[10:40] Fleep Tuque: Much more inactive or occasional
[10:40] IYan Writer: CB: grace has a great blog post on dunbar's numbers, I7ll find the link
[10:40] Cybergrrl Oh: oh yes please!
[10:40] Grace McDunnough: http://phasinggrace.blogspot.com/2007/08/dunbars-number-groups-in-second-life.html
[10:40] Cybergrrl Oh: ty
[10:40] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: so, we have a position of "node" or local adjudicator at the sim level, who's elected
[10:40] Fleep Tuque: Echo Chamber = self-selected group of like-minded people who can't see the forrest cause you're all in the same copse of trees. :)
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and the prospect of appeal to an elected director of citizen affairs, and from there to the Chairman
[10:41] Cybergrrl Oh: ty
[10:41] Grace McDunnough: Thanks Fleep
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, a *very* serious concern -
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and one of the options we're considering strongly is a board of external advisors with significantly different persepctives.
[10:41] Fleep Tuque: Ah yes, loved that post Grace.
[10:41] Fleep Tuque: Good food for thought
[10:41] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Yeps, Grace, I got a lot from that.
[10:41] Cybergrrl Oh: external advisors - interesting
[10:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Would that include non SL folks, too?
[10:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: It seems a natural for us - building ties to other communities is a critical part of our mission
[10:42] Fleep Tuque: Now that would be difficult to imagine for me, external to SL advisors
[10:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG - I hadn't considered that, but it's an interesting thought -
[10:42] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: my first reaction, is, if you don't know the medium, I'm not interested.
[10:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - but that could add something else entirely that could be of value
[10:43] Grace McDunnough: One thing about your community Soph, if I may .. is that in terms of social structures and beliefs - it is still non-mainstream
[10:43] Cybergrrl Oh: We tend to be so immersed in SL-centricity that we might forget there are some wheels invented outside that can still be useful
[10:43] IYan Writer: ty Fleep :)
[10:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Frex, I've read of a graduate student who's writing a constitution for virtual worlds, but has never set foot in one. I would find his views of limited utility
[10:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hang on a sec while I catch up -
[10:43] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: OK, Grace - could you run with that a bit?
[10:43] Grace McDunnough: Academics often .. reach :winks:
[10:44] Fleep Tuque: I think I have to agree, Soph, laugh! And Grace, I'll say as an academic. :)
[10:44] Grace McDunnough: Oh, sure. The points is, that Extropia - the core - is of a mindset toward digitality. While we may think that concept is widespread, it has not reached mainstream yet.
[10:44] Fleep Tuque: No where near mainstream yet.
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: Not even remotely close.
[10:45] Cybergrrl Oh: I'd love more information about digitality.
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I agree -
[10:45] Alanagh Recreant: devil's advocate question... is a constitution or covenant nececcary?
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Ally -
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I think yes, for two reasons -
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: That's been a topic of great debate in Chilbo
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: :)
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one, for the necessity of managing the property per LL requirements
[10:45] Fleep Tuque: For the moment we have community guidelines, specifically NOT a constitution or covenant.
[10:45] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: two - we're not an open town
[10:46] Sloan Skjellerup: kk, just steped back in and I'm catching up
[10:46] Sloan Skjellerup: sorry
[10:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: we're a community founded on a concept, and only open to those who subscribe to that concept
[10:46] Grace McDunnough: WB Sloan
[10:46] Cybergrrl Oh: How do you determine who you will allow into your "town" - how do you know they subscribe?
[10:46] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: so, what we are and aren't at a fundamental level needs to be set out clealry
[10:46] Cybergrrl Oh: what is the vetting process I guess is what I'm asking
[10:46] Fleep Tuque: Interested in that answer too, we've run into issues with that
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We require two references from current Citizens - a process we were a bit slack about in starting
[10:47] Fleep Tuque: Folks who say they get the picture and then very clearly do not.
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and encurage people to attend events, get to know Citizens, first
[10:47] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: it's not foolproof, but I don't know that anything would be
[10:47] Fleep Tuque: Involvement seems to be the best predictor.
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: it sorts people who just want real estate -
[10:47] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes, exactly, Fleep
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: Engagement for its own sake, I want to see potential members involved with the community because they enjoy it before they join it.
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: we didn't want a barrier too high, or that would eliminate, frex, people more shy that I might be,
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes, exactly!
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ok, did I miss anyone's question?
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: Soph
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: your tier scheme is intended to break even?
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: to profit?
[10:48] Cybergrrl Oh: <---moderator is slacking
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag sighs
[10:48] Fleep Tuque: or is it being funded by core members
[10:48] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I dream of breaking even -
[10:49] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:49] Fleep Tuque: laugh!
[10:49] Fleep Tuque: us too
[10:49] Cybergrrl Oh: don't we all!
[10:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: right now, it's being underwritten by core members -
[10:49] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:49] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: sim purchase won't be covered, and we're underwriting the 25% of the sim that's community space
[10:49] Cybergrrl Oh: Q: Do those who are underwriting get special privleges or power because of the money invested? have an expectation of some kind?
[10:49] Fleep Tuque: Another question, have you set up transfer mechanisms (technical, procedural, real world) should your main landowner get hit by a bus?
[10:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: so, yes, Gala and I are both in for about $400kL and a hundred or so $USD/month
[10:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep! aak, no, we totally missed that - thank you!
[10:50] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:50] Fleep Tuque: That's been something we just addressed in the past few months.
[10:50] Cybergrrl Oh: hopefully not because they were hit by a bus!
[10:50] Fleep Tuque: I really worried about what would happen to the community if something happened to me.
[10:50] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We've made a very small start, in creating an accounting av along the SL Africa model, but there's a lot we need to address there!
[10:50] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:50] Fleep Tuque: It's very complex issue in SL terms
[10:51] Fleep Tuque: Perhaps a discussion for another time.
[10:51] Fleep Tuque: But sustainability, transferability, I think those are key things to consider in virtual community building.
[10:51] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: What we'd probably do is put everything in the name of that av, "Extropia Republic," and share passwords, or make them available through escrow for an emergency - but I'm speculating
[10:51] Fleep Tuque: Paarticularly one that values anonymity
[10:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods @Fleep
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: I've done that - taking SL Africa's lead, too
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: If you don't know RL identity of core members, the assets they hold.. well.
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: AthenaIsle Republic
[10:52] Fleep Tuque nods.
[10:52] Sophrosyne Stenvaag smiles and nods at CG
[10:52] iAlja Writer: yep, that's the usual procedure
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: (Still officially against the SL ToS or no? I never know the answer)
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: Is there a book or blog that spells out this kind of procedure?
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: I am writing one!
[10:52] Fleep Tuque: :)
[10:52] Alanagh Recreant: brb
[10:52] Cybergrrl Oh: I would not have known what to do if it wasn't for Ally's work
[10:53] Cybergrrl Oh: yay Fleep!
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh, Fleep, we *so* have to talk!
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
[10:53] Kada Singh accepted your inventory offer.
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: Working on the first annual Chilbo report, that's a key section
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: Sure you all will hear about it when I get it finished. :)
[10:53] iAlja Writer: will it be available publicky Fleep?
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: Yes
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: hm, quarterly and annual reports - *very* good idea!
[10:53] iAlja Writer: great :)
[10:53] Fleep Tuque: we're all about open source
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag nodsnods
[10:53] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - we should have you as a guest speaker to talk about it, too - and I'm sure we'd all love to help somehow
[10:53] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes!
[10:54] IYan Writer nods at CB
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: One of the things that I am hoping to see happen here is..
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: not sure how to describe
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: A network of affinity communities
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yes!
[10:54] Cybergrrl Oh: yes - absolutely
[10:54] Grace McDunnough: A federation :)
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: So if a resident comes to Chilbo but really has a sci-fi bent, I can say hey, Extropia might be a better fit for you
[10:54] IYan Writer: United federation of sims.
[10:54] Fleep Tuque: Community profiles, so we can direct people to where they will TRULY find their niche
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: As we grow enough that I can shed hats, I'd like that to be my full job for Extropia-
[10:54] Cybergrrl Oh: I'd love to have representatives from diverse communities here
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yesyes, Fleep!
[10:54] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG, you need to get Michel Manen here!
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: I could definitely help with that on the Community Builders blog
[10:55] Fleep Tuque: Work phone call afk one sec
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: directory that is
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Who is Michel Manen?
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh swears she isn't an ignoramus
[10:55] IYan Writer: you're on voice fleep ;)
[10:55] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Michel's the founder of Al Andalus - which is trying to build a progressive Islamic community in SL
[10:55] Fleep Tuque: Woops!
[10:55] Fleep Tuque: Thanks. :)
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, right
[10:55] Cybergrrl Oh: you had him as a guest?
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We opened an embassy there last week, and Michel and I will be doing a number of events uniting our two communities
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Yes
[10:56] Cybergrrl Oh: interesting
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: Hmm Embassies
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: that's an interesting concept
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: I like that idea.
[10:56] Cybergrrl Oh: Well, I'm open to suggestions - I'd like this group to be useful to us all
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: We wanted to support their work - so we bought a small property
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: Also Cyber, Spin Martin of the Saijo City project might be another guest speaker
[10:56] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm just being a big sponge right now, soaking in the wisdom and experiences
[10:56] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and - shhh - it's a place for the Board to meet without the constant drop-ins we get in Extropia
[10:56] Fleep Tuque: His theme is.. living fiction community..
[10:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I'd thought they were pretty much gone from SL
[10:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Saijo is a fascinating concept, and I'd love to talk with him -
[10:57] Cybergrrl Oh: living fiction community?
[10:57] Grace McDunnough: Saijo is waning, I'd say
[10:57] Fleep Tuque: I might have missed it, I know he was exploring with Kaneva, wants it to span more than one virtual world.
[10:57] Fleep Tuque: Ah ok
[10:57] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: My understanding is, it's not exactly an RP community, but one with a deep backstory
[10:57] Fleep Tuque: So much to keep up with!
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: and yes, a community across worlds and media
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: At some point, I'd love for us to talk about other virtual worlds
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: yesyes!
[10:58] Grace McDunnough: Soph, do you consider Extropia a RP community?
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: Well, that's something I was discussing with some others
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: I just got a book deal to write about marketing across virtual worlds
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: No, absolutely not.
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: I'm thinking of organizing field trips
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: good question Soph!
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: to other virtual worlds.
[10:58] Joi Koi accepted your inventory offer.
[10:58] Joi Koi accepted your inventory offer.
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: yay for field trips!
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, I'd love that!
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: I think it would be MUCH more fun to go explore and learn together than to do it individually
[10:58] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm picking up my new PC so I can get onto other worlds - none of them support mac except sl
[10:58] IYan Writer: wb ally :)
[10:58] Fleep Tuque: And somehow I keep not making time to go "check out" whatever new one pops up.
[10:58] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Grace, we may build out a fictional backstory, and play with that a bit, but we'll never be RP in any way
[10:59] Alanagh Recreant: / thanks ;)
[10:59] iAlja Writer: ertainly Fleep! I feel so confused in these other worlds all on my own, surrounded by teenagers usually ;)
[10:59] Cybergrrl Oh: RP - is roleplaing?
[10:59] Fleep Tuque: (Capitalizing on the academic concept of learning communities, you gain deeper knowledge when learning in a cohort than alone)
[10:59] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: (and, we are *so not* an RP government, which I want to say explicity!)
[10:59] Cybergrrl Oh: ah yes
[10:59] Grace McDunnough: I ask, because .. RP communities invest in stories - to create a sense of cummunal understanding
[10:59] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Fleep, I think that would be fantastic
[10:59] Alanagh Recreant smiles at Cybergrrl... RP is roleplay yes
[11:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: I agree, Grace, which i s why we may include backstory elements -
[11:00] Cybergrrl Oh: yes, gotta remember the acronyms!
[11:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: one, that's something that interests Argent, and two,
[11:00] Grace McDunnough: New concepts, new structures lack that historical reference for grounding
[11:00] iAlja Writer: when are you planning to do that Soph?
[11:00] Fleep Tuque: Nod, we're not RP either, but we are creating something of a community history to provide that backstory
[11:00] Fleep Tuque: to transmit cultural ideals
[11:00] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: both Vidal and I have gotten a bit of the importance of that in community building from the games design literature
[11:00] Cybergrrl Oh: Backstory elements - what might those be?
[11:00] Fleep Tuque nods at Grace.
[11:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: CG, Gala has a concept in mind -
[11:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: that there's a fictional Extropia that "was" founded at some point -
[11:01] Alanagh Recreant: Sophrosyne... are you familiar with the ideas of synectics? And are these used in your community?
[11:01] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Oh, CG, great- I'd love to have a record of this -
[11:01] Cybergrrl Oh: Synectics?
[11:02] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: Ally -no, never heard the term
[11:02] Cybergrrl Oh: Absolutely!
[11:02] Alanagh Recreant: Maggie ;)
[11:02] Alanagh Recreant: ...central principle... "Trust things that are alien, and alienate things that are trusted."
[11:02] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: ahhh!
[11:02] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: that sounds----- congenial :)
[11:02] Maggie Marat: hehe
[11:03] Fleep Tuque: laugh
[11:03] Alanagh Recreant: ...but there is an entire methodology around it, mostly linked to solving problems
[11:03] Alanagh Recreant: :P
[11:03] IYan Writer: "Better bad and new than old and good" - berthold brecht
[11:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: If you've got any references or links, I'd love them
[11:03] Fleep Tuque: Will have to investigate that
[11:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: my reading list is insane.... :)
[11:03] Grace McDunnough: That does not apply to wine, .. btw
[11:03] Alanagh Recreant: we use it a lot in communities
[11:03] Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
[11:03] Fleep Tuque: Sounds interesting, but perhaps a little throwing baby out with bathwater?
[11:04] Alanagh Recreant: / sit Maggie :)
[11:04] Cybergrrl Oh: I must run to a RL meeting - feel free to stay and chat and network a bit. And if you say anything interesting, please save and send to me!
[11:04] Sophrosyne Stenvaag: oh, and also, I don' think it needs to be said here, but still -
[11:04] Fleep Tuque: One of the things I worry about is lost knowledge, that there is the potential for such a radically rapid departure to digital systems that we'll lose knowledge and wisdom in the transition.
[11:04] Cybergrrl Oh: I stopped tracking at "baby out with bathwater!"
[11:05] IYan Writer: thanks for hosting this, CB
[11:05] Maggie Marat: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/courses/ET650_online/MAPPS/Synectics.html
[11:05] Cybergrrl Oh: bye all

Upcoming Community Builders VW Events in Second Life

We're holding meetings on Athena Isle (SLURL here).

Here are some upcoming guests speakers in 2008.

1/04/08 COMMUNITY BUILDERS - guest Sophrosyne Stenvaag, co-creator of Extropia

01/18/08 COMMUNITY BUILDERS - Thinkerer Melville, Arts Patron & Owner of Cookie Island (Thinkerer will use SL voice for his chat, you are welcome to use voice or text.)

02/01/08 COMMUNITY BUILDERS - Selina Greene, co-creator of Book and Publishing Islands

Community Builders Virtual Worlds: First Meeting

Post event message from Alanagh Recreant:

In African philosophy, siriti means shade or shadow and is seen as the life-force identifying a person... the aura... it is in essence the energy or the power that makes us ourselves and unite us in a personal interaction with people around us...in Second Life, in my opinion... one's seriti (moral weight ...influence) is demonstrated so well because we are all reliant on the character and behaviour of those around us... and many superficial boundaries fall away and we become a community so much more.

Summary Quotes: What is Community?

MikeG1 Schumann: The place where everyone knows your name :)

Joi Koi: people comming together for whatever reason.

Elzbiet Meili: an entity in which each person has a sense of purpose and belonging and can look for advise and constructive criticism without fear of being judged.

Crap Mariner: A human network, defined by common interest, purpose, but not always limited by distance. The lack of common interest or familiarity is what is rotting RL community, yet building SL/VL.

Cybergrrl Oh: the cohesion of individuals into a group based on something similar - interest, goal, etc.

IYan Writer: people interacting for a common X (practice, interest, circumstance, change), giving value and receiving it in return

iAlja Writer: people who have something in common and work together for a common goal/idea

First Meeting 12/6/07

[11:07] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm going to get started in a few minutes because I know some of you have to run soon
[11:07] Cybergrrl Oh: We'll do some intros, too, so we can all meet new people
[11:07] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll start actually, to get things rolling!

[11:07] Elzbiet Meili: :)
[11:08] Elzbiet Meili: go girl!

[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: So hi everyone - this is part of my great experiment.
[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: Holding an event sending out 1 invite and no reminders - other than IMing Alanagh, that is!

[11:08] Alanagh Recreant smiles

[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm curious to see how many people schedule in events for SL or how many rely on reminders
[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: But anyway, I'm Cybergrrl Oh and I'm a community builder!

[11:08] iAlja Writer relies on iCal :)

[11:08] IYan Writer claps :)

[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: And a writer, marketer, entrepreneur and all around crazy woman.

[11:09] Elzbiet Meili: crazy is good, we like that here

[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll explain more about this chat after we go around the table. Alanagh, want to go net?
[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: next?

[11:09] Alanagh Recreant: putting me on the spot...

[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: yeah

[11:09] Alanagh Recreant: I am simplifid complexity.
[11:10] Alanagh Recreant: I am fascinated by sustainability in Africa... and innovation leading there, which brings us to SL.

[11:13] IYan Writer: OK, i'll continue :) iAlja and me are from Artesia - we were always fascinated with virtual communities (for me, it started with BBSes in 1991) and now that they are finally getting some commercia recongnition too, we started a company that helps our clients establish 2D and 3D communities
[11:13] IYan Writer: (of course, when it can be done! )
[11:13] IYan Writer: and we're crazy and can't type, too :D

[11:13] iAlja Writer: I'm also interested in using SL for education - that's how I started here

[11:14] Celebrity Trollop: Well, I have a bunch of communities that I'm trying to build up.
[11:15] Celebrity Trollop: One is Second Style readership. Another is my day job for Millions of Us, and the final one is all of the in-world philanthropy projects I'm engaged with.

[11:16] IYan Writer: ok, short summary: communities, intereted since BBSes, love SL and its potential for community building, embarking on a first SL community project with ialja soon

[11:16] Crap Mariner: Crap Mariner, Podcaster and Writer, working on building cross-podcast content exchanges."Idiot In Chief" of Nowhereville and Edloe Islands. They are co-ownership models with me as the owner on file, but everyone having a stake for full access rights. We discuss and vote on island-wide issues.

[11:17] Elzbiet Meili: HI :)
[11:17] Elzbiet Meili: In first life I'm a grapcs artist, and when I discovered SL last Feb, it consumed me

[11:17] Cybergrrl Oh: consumed, good word

[11:18] Elzbiet Meili: this new form of art, this "game" I could actually call a day job
[11:18] Elzbiet Meili: (still working on how to explain to my parents this one..)

[11:18] Cybergrrl Oh: let me know when you figure that one out

[11:18] IYan Writer: yeah, same here :)

[11:18] Alanagh Recreant smiles

[11:18] Elzbiet Meili: and I fell in with the community here
[11:19] Elzbiet Meili: because, in truth, i was in the midst of a lifestyle change, divorced and all

[11:19] Joi Koi: cheers

[11:19] Elzbiet Meili: woot!

[11:19] Cybergrrl Oh: she's a great builder, and designer.

[11:19] Elzbiet Meili: and anyway, somehow SL gave me a sense of hope for the world that I'd lost in the last few years,

[11:20] Alanagh Recreant: ditto

[11:20] Elzbiet Meili: a place to forget politics and war and make society what we want it to be

[11:20] Cybergrrl Oh: Yes!

[11:20] iAlja Writer nods

[11:20] Elzbiet Meili: sorry, i got carried away

[11:20] Cybergrrl Oh: Passion for something does that to ya

[11:20] Elzbiet Meili: anyway, i'm here for man y reasons... go mike!]

[11:20] MikeG1 Schumann: Let's see...in RL, software developer & writer, lapsed anarchist, my community organizing goes way way back...before this pesky internet stuff...to zine culture for those of you old enough to remember :)

[11:21] Cybergrrl Oh: yay Zines!

[11:21] MikeG1 Schumann: In SL, slowly building up some community on this group of sims...though it's more the benevolent dictator model than co-owners
[11:21] MikeG1 Schumann: So I'm the landlord :)
[11:21] MikeG1 Schumann: And now I'm gonna be afk for a couple minutes dealing with plumbers. Ick.

[11:22] Joi Koi: Hello....community?

[11:22] Crap Mariner snickers at Mike the SL Fascist ;)

[11:23] Joi Koi: In rl I have lived in various communitys, squat, therapeutic, holistic centers now I live alone with my dog although my blood family live nearby
[11:24] Joi Koi: Am interested in like minded peoople althought I treasure healthy skeptism
[11:24] Joi Koi: Enjoying the diversity of SL

[11:25] Cybergrrl Oh: So the reason I wanted to personally invite some great community building minds together is to see if I could build a community of community builders! Like a support group for community junkies and influencers.
[11:25] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, Grace, please introduce yourself

[11:25] Grace McDunnough: / Hello I'm Grace :)

[11:25] Elzbiet Meili: Hi Grace

[11:26] Cybergrrl Oh: Grace is incredibly talented

[11:26] iAlja Writer agrees

[11:26] Crap Mariner: absolutely

[11:26] Joi Koi: Beautiful voice

[11:26] IYan Writer nods

[11:26] Grace McDunnough: /ahem, ok so .... ;-)

[11:26] Cybergrrl Oh: So what else do you do

[11:27] iAlja Writer: don't be distracted by the compliments ;)

[11:27] Crap Mariner: (or the bunny heads)

[11:27] Cybergrrl Oh: We have about 1/2 hour left so I'll dive right in
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: I'd love for everyone to toss out ideas vs. going round the table and let's see what happens.
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm going to pose some questions
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: and just say what comes to mind.
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll go thru and edit the transcript later and share with everyone

[11:28] Alanagh Recreant: a roundtable format :)) great!

[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: so if you get lost in the chaos of brilliance, no worries
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: and let's just see where this takes us!

[11:28] iAlja Writer: we're used to that :)

[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: First question

[11:28] Elzbiet Meili grins

[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: What is community?
[11:29] Cybergrrl Oh: don't all yell at once
[11:29] Cybergrrl Oh: lol

[11:29] MikeG1 Schumann: The place where everyone knows your name :)

[11:29] Joi Koi: people comming together for whatever reason.

[11:29] Elzbiet Meili: an entity in which each person has a sense of purpose and belonging

[11:29] Crap Mariner: A human network, defined by common interest, purpose, but not always limited by distance.

[11:29] Cybergrrl Oh: the cohesion of individuals into a group based on something similar - interest, goal, etc.

[11:29] IYan Writer: people interacting for a common X (practice, interest, circumstance, change)
[11:30] IYan Writer: giving value and receiving it in return

[11:30] iAlja Writer: people who have something in common and work together for a common goal/idea

[11:30] Elzbiet Meili: ..and can look for advise and constructive criticism without fear of being judged..

[11:30] Crap Mariner: The lack of common interest or familiarity is what is rotting RL community, yet building SL/VL.

[11:30] Cybergrrl Oh: Do we all agree that commonality has to be there?

[11:30] IYan Writer: of course

[11:30] Cybergrrl Oh: some common ground?

[11:30] Elzbiet Meili: Yes

[11:30] iAlja Writer nods

[11:30] Cybergrrl Oh: OK, so how does or how can community start?

[11:30] Elzbiet Meili: There are entirely too many people who think there's nothing to do here

[11:31] Cybergrrl Oh: What is the impetus beyond that common ground? The mechanics of starting it?
[11:31] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz, really?

[11:31] Elzbiet Meili: education

[11:31] iAlja Writer: willingness to collaborate

[11:31] Crap Mariner: It starts with a single bond, I suppose, and builds from there.

[11:31] IYan Writer: with something of value - with somebody giving something for nothing (at least initially)

[11:31] Elzbiet Meili: really.. i have a slew of friends who may not be insta artists or scripters, so got bored quickly

[11:31] Crap Mariner: The tools like twitter or groups or wikis or forums or mailing lists act as the mechanisms for the bond to grow and strengthen

[11:31] Joi Koi: Sharing...taking risks...building trust....thinking beyond oneself

[11:32] IYan Writer: elzbiet: neither am I, but I love SL events (like this one! :) )

[11:32] Crap Mariner: iYan - I agree. Starts with a single act or spark.

[11:32] Alanagh Recreant: in communities without electronic means... there are other tools...

[11:32] Cybergrrl Oh: How critical is it to have a community builder - a "leader" if you will - no matter how informal?

[11:32] Alanagh Recreant: like word of mouth, tradition

[11:33] Crap Mariner: Alanagh - I agree. Churches, community meals, etc. In their absence in SL, other events or mechanisms take their place.

[11:33] Joi Koi: Well leadership is a role so it can pass from person to person....a unified vision maybe

[11:33] Celebrity Trollop: Communities don't stay healthy IMO unless there's someone to do administrative things and make decisions for the collective.

[11:33] Cybergrrl Oh: communication and tools for communication are critical I think

[11:33] MikeG1 Schumann: Even supposedly leaderless commnities tend to develop leaders

[11:33] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb - I agree

[11:33] Elzbiet Meili: I think one, or a few co-leaders.. as long as some one or some group is actually making something happen.

[11:34] Alanagh Recreant: a community builder is not essential....for a community to exist, but it gives direction to the community and purpose

[11:34] iAlja Writer: community leadership doesn't mean making decisions for everyone else

[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm one of those people who hate to rule by committee - so does that kill a community?

[11:34] IYan Writer: leaders are born automatically by the processs of exchanging ideas and viewpoints, i think

[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: so it doesn't take a formal process to be the leader

[11:34] IYan Writer: but community leaders =/= community admins

[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: founding a community - a group - seems to be leading by default

[11:34] Elzbiet Meili: natural selection..

[11:34] iAlja Writer nods

[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan, true - a leader doesn't necessarily do the maintenance work

[11:35] MikeG1 Schumann: Lots of times the founder gets to be the leader b/c no one else wants to do the *work*

[11:35] Cybergrrl Oh: but a good leader knows how to delegate!

[11:35] Crap Mariner: ultimately, a leader does develop. but the leader can choose to rule by decree or by building consensus

[11:35] MikeG1 Schumann: If they can find suckers ;)

[11:35] Cybergrrl Oh: delegate and also help others to feel invested in the community.

[11:35] Alanagh Recreant laughs

[11:35] Crap Mariner: i prefer to act by building consensus then openly discussing.

[11:35] Joi Koi: I think some of the best leaders do so from beneath, unnoticed, letting the figureheads take the credit.....and the flak :-)

[11:35] IYan Writer: i didn't necessarily mean maintenance work - but the most common fault i've observed with inet communities (forums etc) is that admins automatically think they are community leaders, and enforce their decisions - when in fact, they should only provide a platform

[11:36] Celebrity Trollop: Crap Mariner, Iron Fisted Ruler of Edloe

[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - meaning you get everyone to agree with you?
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: lol

[11:36] Alanagh Recreant: I could not agree more with you Joi

[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: what does consensus building really mean?
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm being serious, too, I'm just not sure

[11:36] Elzbiet Meili: Mike, we don't call them "suckers," we call them "minions"

[11:36] Crap Mariner: Sometimes, yes. But I fidn that if I act in that manner, resentment builds. I prefer to come up with ideas and float them.

[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Joi - yes, that's a good point

[11:36] Alanagh Recreant: give-take-live

[11:36] MikeG1 Schumann: It's a fine line, though....some communities are destroyed by leaders not willing to take a stand, and letting troublemakers get away with too much

[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - aha, gotcha - good point

[11:36] Crap Mariner: i'll discuss the ideas with folks one-on-one, refining the plan, then presenting it to a whole.

[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Put the ideas out there and see how the community reacts and take their input

[11:37] Crap Mariner: troublemakers or exploiters find themselves stomped by the group.

[11:37] MikeG1 Schumann: I'd say one reason mainland SL isn't much inthe way of community is that the Lindens refuse to set much of a standard

[11:37] Crap Mariner: Mainland is anarchy.

[11:37] MikeG1 Schumann: But then I'm a fascist, what do I know? ;)

[11:37] Cybergrrl Oh: OK, Mike, segway into my next question

[11:38] IYan Writer: i actually agree with their position of minimal interferance, mike

[11:38] Joi Koi: Consensus is that like mashing everyones opinions together...give an take...untill a coherent whole is established?

[11:38] Cybergrrl Oh: How is Second Life different for building community online?

[11:38] IYan Writer: i just think they'll be able to hold on to it

[11:38] MikeG1 Schumann: I've seen anarchies that function better than the mainland

[11:38] Alanagh Recreant: Access

[11:38] Fleep Tuque: The mainland is it's own mess of problems, for sure.

[11:38] MikeG1 Schumann: Oh, I like the minimal interference for establishing a platform - I just don't think it establishes a community

[11:38] Crap Mariner: Their position of little interference may be an "unmanaged hosting" position to avoid legal responsibility for content, saves on time policing actively.

[11:38] Cybergrrl Oh: Joi - I am still trying to mentally draw the difference between consensus vs. committee

[11:38] Elzbiet Meili: SL is the essence of "life is what you make it"

[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - I think you are right - hands off to avoid legalities
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz - yes, I agree!

[11:39] IYan Writer: i think SL is a qualitative shift in communication among people - it allows tighter interaction, and that is why it's different than 2D tools

[11:39] Crap Mariner: mike - Nessus sim is a mostly Jewish community built around Beth Odets. Mainland, yet very strong. And self-policing.

[11:39] Fleep Tuque: I think the key defining point for consensus is that you don't move on or take any action until EVERYONE agrees they can live with it - even if they don't _like_ it.

[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Your Second Life - and your First Life by inevitable connection - is what you make of it here.

[11:39] Fleep Tuque: It implies a level of buy in.

[11:39] Elzbiet Meili: Ind, looking at where we are in a tech point of view, and where the internet is heading... we are the poineers

[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - haha, that would kill me to build that kind of consensus.
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm more of a dictator myself
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: ;-)

[11:39] Fleep Tuque: We manage it with 50 some people in Chilbo. :)

[11:40] Alanagh Recreant: [11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: give-take-live (agrees with Fleep)

[11:40] Fleep Tuque: It just takes longer.

[11:40] MikeG1 Schumann: But even consensus can be used as a tool to suppress dissent. In some cases it's a way for those with the most staying power to win.

[11:40] IYan Writer: i think that kind of "deep" consensus doesn't scale

[11:40] Fleep Tuque: Well, sometimes the consensus is that some part of the community agrees to leave some things up to other parts of the community. :)

[11:40] Cybergrrl Oh: What communities are you seeing that are thriving?
[11:40] Cybergrrl Oh: So what is working in Second Life?
[11:40] Cybergrrl Oh: That you envy (!) or want to emulate?

[11:40] Crap Mariner: Except that it will come back as whining and bickering later

[11:41] Elzbiet Meili: I've only been here since February, but in my random group experiences, and faces I see over and over again, the circle of "do'ers" is not that big

[11:41] Fleep Tuque: But it's opt out process, by default you're included.

[11:41] Celebrity Trollop: Cybergrrl: Roleplay communities.

[11:41] Crap Mariner: Nessus - Tragically misunderstood artsist / Beth Brown is working, I think.

[11:41] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz - I agree - same observation

[11:41] Crap Mariner: Kindly university appears to be working.

[11:41] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb - that is so interesting about roleplaying communities - I've yet to participate

[11:41] Alanagh Recreant: I think it can scale IYan... because deep consensus forms a platform for further community building, because it rests on principle and values that are agreed-upon

[11:41] Crap Mariner: moo Money's Collins community is not taking off due to her absence.

[11:41] Fleep Tuque: I think the RPG communities seem to be working well, and yes, edus seem to be holding their own but that's comewhat coercive - gotta participate to get a grade.

[11:41] IYan Writer: the problem is that SL enforces small user groups, because of the sim limit

[11:41] Cybergrrl Oh: I think the Metaversed events are very strong - but is there a cohesive community there?

[11:41] IYan Writer: combined with "birds of a feather" syndrome, that explains the same faces

[11:42] Crap Mariner: And Podcast/Podcaster Island is just getting started again

[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan - yeah, limitations of the technology

[11:42] Elzbiet Meili: I feel like I know most of the more active SL'rs, when it comes to making it what it is... take the Dobbs events, for example

[11:42] Fleep Tuque: I know I'm late getting here, but the biggest problem Chilbo is facing

[11:42] Crap Mariner: I do not think Metaversed is a community. Just a broadcast event for the most part.

[11:42] Fleep Tuque: is the "place" problem.

[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Dobbs events, Metaversed events - the bigger communities do see tech or education oriented, don't they?

[11:42] Alanagh Recreant agrees with Crap...

[11:42] Fleep Tuque: What is the tie between the community and the location? Is there any?
[11:42] Fleep Tuque: In a virtual world?

[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - interesting, my thoughts, exactly
[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: about Metaversed.

[11:42] IYan Writer: great question, fleep

[11:43] Grace McDunnough: I've found location to be important, actually

[11:43] Crap Mariner: Artropolis is also a thriving and expanding community. Filthy Fluno and musicians and artists. Expanding to Blue Fusion IBM Almaden sim

[11:43] Grace McDunnough: People still have a sense of attachment, recognition, etc

[11:43] iAlja Writer: I think SL is great because it gives a very strong feeling of place

[11:43] Cybergrrl Oh: What is missing when you see these big events with great attendance but not a lasting community? Why isn't it translating into community?

[11:43] Alanagh Recreant: I think that is the one thing that makes SL very different, a sense of place

[11:43] Grace McDunnough: Aye

[11:43] Alanagh Recreant: sorry iAlja

[11:43] Alanagh Recreant: lol

[11:43] iAlja Writer: great minds think alike ;)

[11:43] Crap Mariner: Cyb - People tp in and tp out. Nothing bring them there for ad-hoc discussions.

[11:44] Grace McDunnough: Community is about a more lasting engagement on many levels - the big events are more like a one night stand

[11:44] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb - you hold big events and have big Groups. Do you feel you have community there?

[11:44] Grace McDunnough: (not that I've ever had one .. )

[11:44] Crap Mariner: Nessus and the Hobos of Cookie sim have a floating discussion.

[11:44] Fleep Tuque: I think with metaversed, how do we communicate with each other outside of the the synchronous group chat?

[11:44] MikeG1 Schumann: I suspect there are plenty of little residential communities that most people just don't know about - a sim here, a sim there

[11:44] Grace McDunnough agrees with Mike

[11:45] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - true - but how do other groups communicate beyond their weekly or monthly event? What is the GLUE holding them together?

[11:45] Fleep Tuque: There have to be options for synchronous AND asynchronous communication for community to form.

[11:45] Crap Mariner: From what Doc Fran talks about, the Elves/RPG there have that kind of thing going.

[11:45] MikeG1 Schumann: I can usually count on a neighbor or three to hang out with here when I'm in the mood to chat

[11:45] Fleep Tuque: (beyond individual IMs)

[11:45] Alanagh Recreant: come to think of it though... I think Metaversed and those are community facilitators... as they kick-start community formation

[11:45] Cybergrrl Oh: And does size matter? How large does a community have to be before it is "successful?"

[11:45] Grace McDunnough: And we have a great little community in Mystical Cookie's Avendale sim

[11:45] Joi Koi: The Wastelands has a fairly strong community spirit.......kinda /game/roleplay

[11:45] Crap Mariner: Fleep - In Edloe & Nowhereville's case, I suppose it's their undying loyalty to me?

[11:45] Elzbiet Meili: It needs to start at the beginning.

[11:45] Fleep Tuque: hehe

[11:45] Grace McDunnough: (cough)

[11:45] Fleep Tuque: Well, I know about half of you here
[11:45] Fleep Tuque: I consider you my Twitter-SL community

[11:46] Grace McDunnough: ;-)

[11:46] Fleep Tuque: Even if we don't have a name or a place.

[11:46] Crap Mariner: They do so love to beat the bejesus out of me every so often. Sometimes, they take turns.

[11:46] iAlja Writer nods

[11:46] Fleep Tuque: laugh crap!

[11:46] Elzbiet Meili: As an artist, the second I logged in for the firs time I saw a world of possibilities,

[11:46] iAlja Writer: twitter is quite interesting in that sense

[11:46] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz - me too! And I'm not an artist.

[11:46] Fleep Tuque: I think twitter has done more to connect me to the .. larger SL community than ANYTHING in world.

[11:46] Cybergrrl Oh: I was ready to start businesses and build communities.

[11:46] Alanagh Recreant: I think twitter is more a tool... not a community so much...

[11:46] Cybergrrl Oh: Yay for Twitter!

[11:46] Elzbiet Meili: but I think for most people, unless they don't already know somebody, when the orientation is done, the first thing someone thinks is "now what"

[11:46] Fleep Tuque: Hm, good point Alanagh.

[11:46] Crap Mariner: Elz - That sounds an awful lot like Filthy Fluno's mind-blowing immersion in SL.

[11:46] IYan Writer: i don't really like twitter that much
[11:47] IYan Writer cowers

[11:47] Alanagh Recreant: it brings community together, so maybe also a facilitator of community building

[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: Alanagh - I have to say Twitter is my community - the people I follow are truly my community.

[11:47] MikeG1 Schumann: Some people are more naturally twis than others :)

[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: Twitter as a whole is a tool, tho

[11:47] Alanagh Recreant: really?

[11:47] MikeG1 Schumann: twits

[11:47] Fleep Tuque: Hehe it's ok IYan, not all tools work for everyone.

[11:47] Crap Mariner: Twitter can be overwhelming. I'm undergoing Web 2.1 right now, defollowing a bunch of folks to reduce the noise.

[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: Web 2.1 - love it!

[11:47] IYan Writer: a) open to google search (unlike facebook), b) prone to floods

[11:47] iAlja Writer: IYan - you're not using it

[11:47] Crap Mariner: And, yet, for the most part, i *am* noise.

[11:47] IYan Writer: because i don0t like it, ialja

[11:47] Joi Koi: http://twitter.com/joikoi come in its open ;-)

[11:47] Fleep Tuque: I think I take comfort in the twitter noise stream, it tells me the community is there even when I'm not

[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: I tap into Twitter several times a day like a person walks to the watercooler in an office or sits down with a friend

[11:47] Grace McDunnough: Don't make me separate you two

[11:47] Fleep Tuque: Stuff is happening

[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: http://twitter.com/alizasherman

[11:48] iAlja Writer: it gets better when you find cool people to follow :)

[11:48] Alanagh Recreant: Cybergrrl, then I suppose it depends on your permissions in twitter... how you choose to use the tool?

[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm very ... self-revealing on twitter.
[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: just to warn you

[11:48] Fleep Tuque: Yes me too, Cybergrrl, dont read everything I couldn't keep up!

[11:48] Alanagh Recreant: http://twitter.com/meerkatje

[11:48] Elzbiet Meili: http://twitter.com/elzbiet

[11:48] Fleep Tuque: http://twitter.com/fleep

[11:48] Elzbiet Meili: except I never remember to use it

[11:48] IYan Writer: i'm more of a pull guy than a push guy

[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: Alanagh- yes, how you use Twitter - like any of the tools - depends on how you use them

[11:48] Grace McDunnough makes another IYan note

[11:48] iAlja Writer: http://twitter.com/iAlja

[11:48] Fleep Tuque: And sorry didnt mean to turn the conversation to twitter

[11:48] Crap Mariner: http://twitter.com/isfullofcrap

[11:48] Alanagh Recreant adds twits

[11:48] Fleep Tuque: its just that it's been so useful to me in building what I consider MY SL community

[11:48] MikeG1 Schumann: http://twitter.com/MikeG1

[11:48] Fleep Tuque: broader than any single in world group.

[11:49] IYan Writer: argh! at the onrez browser (and your URLs)

[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: So what am I missing? What haven't I asked yet about community?
[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: How about tell us about the community you are trying to build.
[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb, like me, has more than one

[11:49] IYan Writer: i think that the distinction virtual community / virtual settloement is important

[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: But what is your ultimate goal?

[11:49] IYan Writer: for example, metaversed has a settlement

[11:49] Grace McDunnough: Agreed, IYan

[11:50] Cybergrrl Oh: settlement?
[11:50] Cybergrrl Oh: explain?

[11:50] Crap Mariner: Goal?

[11:50] Fleep Tuque: My project is Chilbo, the Chilbo Community Building Project, http://chilbo.org
[11:50] Fleep Tuque: Outside of my professional SL activities.

[11:50] Alanagh Recreant: we are building a RL community connected to SL

[11:50] Fleep Tuque: We have a goal statement, regular meetings, a blog, and of course a home sim.

[11:50] Alanagh Recreant: in Africa
[11:50] Alanagh Recreant: and vice versa

[11:50] Celebrity Trollop: http://twitter.com/slfashionista

[11:51] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm building 4 communities and a subset - this one, Community Builders in Virtual Worlds; Second Life Entrepreneurs Club; Second Life Writers Club; Second Life Women's Club and Moms in Second Life.
[11:51] Cybergrrl Oh: My goals are part selfish, part altruistic

[11:51] Crap Mariner: I have smaller goals and projects, but no overwhelming underlying goal, I suppose.

[11:51] Fleep Tuque: (Group limits really suck, if that hasn't already been said.)

[11:51] Cybergrrl Oh: I really want to be a part of these communities, learn and share.

[11:51] Crap Mariner: The group limit just makes people realize that there's better ways to manage a community - group blog, RSS feeds, google calendars, drupal, etc.

[11:52] Grace McDunnough: I ran a poetry group for nearly a year, it was a rather vibrant community - we were simply there for each other - then we hit a tipping point

[11:52] IYan Writer: fleep: i actually think they are good - dunbar number etc - they artificially force smaller, tighter groups

[11:52] Cybergrrl Oh: And I want to be able to leverage them to build my "reputation" as a community builder and to help companies and nonprofits tap into vibrant communities for mutual benefit - for the company and for the group

[11:52] Grace McDunnough: people came in and wnated to "be famous"

[11:52] Crap Mariner: TIPPING POINT - Every group hits a deathspin eventually, right?

[11:52] Grace McDunnough: Suddenly, the community was malaligned

[11:52] Fleep Tuque: IYan, not when most of your groups are taken up for practical things like land management for work.

[11:52] Cybergrrl Oh: Deathspin?

[11:52] Fleep Tuque: Eek Grace

[11:52] Grace McDunnough: If you are not familiar with the Dunbar numner theory, I recommend a read
[11:52] Grace McDunnough: *number

[11:52] Fleep Tuque: that sounds like a tough thing to deal with

[11:52] IYan Writer: oh, group limit, sorry, i read sim limit

[11:52] Crap Mariner: When the community stops being about their common interest and it focuses solely on the members and the mechanisms of administrering the group.

[11:53] IYan Writer: (grace has a great blog summary on it)
[11:53] IYan Writer: (plug!)

[11:53] Celebrity Trollop: Celeb - you hold big events and have big Groups. Do you feel you have community there?

[11:53] Fleep Tuque: Will have to look for that and read it

[11:53] Cybergrrl Oh: What is the URL?

[11:53] Grace McDunnough: Oh, haha, thanks IYan

[11:53] Celebrity Trollop: So I was asked while I was working elsewhere

[11:53] Cybergrrl Oh: multitasking maven that Celeb is!

[11:53] Fleep Tuque: hehe

[11:53] Celebrity Trollop: I think so - it's not as cohesive though, because the common interest in the case of MOU is not as shared as it is say for pixel fashion.

[11:54] Grace McDunnough: http://phasinggrace.blogspot.com/2007/08/dunbars-number-groups-in-second-life.html

[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: I was asking if she thought she had communities
[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: or just groups with big numbers

[11:54] Alanagh Recreant: Crap... the tough thing is when resources are limited... irl, then community-building is either stunted or enhanced... it is an interesting dynamic

[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: This is really great info and discussion - I really appreciate you all being here.
[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: What about trust?

[11:54] Fleep Tuque: I mentioned this at one of your sessions Cybergrrll

[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: Where does trust come in with community?

[11:54] Celebrity Trollop: We've been working on that MOU problem by introducing programs like our community land grant programs and other things like that.

[11:54] Fleep Tuque: I think one key measure of community success
[11:54] Fleep Tuque: is if the leader or founder or impetus disappears, does the thing continue.

[11:54] Alanagh Recreant: we build community via mobile currently... a whole different dynamic

[11:54] Fleep Tuque: If not, then it isn't a community, it's just a cult. :)

[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - yes

[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Cult of personality

[11:55] Fleep Tuque nods.

[11:55] IYan Writer: if the impetus disappears, do we still have a community left?

[11:55] Crap Mariner: Limiting a resource presents a challenge to the community to develop alternatives.

[11:55] Fleep Tuque: Well, everyone changes and grows, and communities ideally do too, right?

[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Right - Celeb asked this at a panel I sat on recently

[11:55] Grace McDunnough: (now has that song stuck in her head, thanks Cybergrrl)

[11:55] Fleep Tuque: If they are _real_ relationships that form

[11:55] iAlja Writer: definitely Fleep

[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: If the "leader" leaves does the community fail?

[11:55] Alanagh Recreant smiles

[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: and if not, why/how not?
[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Grace - love that song!

[11:56] Grace McDunnough: Leaders are terribly important, are they not?

[11:56] Fleep Tuque: That's my biggest fear for Chilbo, if I got hit by a bus tomorrow and it just died, I'd feel that it was a failure.

[11:56] Crap Mariner: When I jokingly called myself Cult Leader Of Edloe, Prokofy jumped on that term big time. Yeah, it's a helpful mechanism for keeping folks together, everybody has a tie back to a central hub, but you get a more stable community when the bonds are foged between the rest of the membership.

[11:56] Grace McDunnough: The big question becomes - is the community about the leader, or the cause/goals

[11:56] Fleep Tuque: Agree, Crap

[11:56] IYan Writer: i think the creators can foster the environment that enables generation of new leaders

[11:56] Crap Mariner: Or you build the community out of existing smaller networks into a major network.

[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: The community should be about the common goals - but often the leader becomes the GLUE

[11:57] Fleep Tuque: Those side bonds matter, if you know everyone, but everyone doesn't know each other, then that's not really community either.

[11:57] IYan Writer: but the creators themselves should soon distance themselves from the leadership role.. like LL in SL

[11:57] MikeG1 Schumann: Yes, setting up the right conditions to let things grow naturally is where a good leader invests time

[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan, yes or they risk Founders Syndrome

[11:57] Crap Mariner: If I were to put a .22 in my head right now, I believe Razzap/Cogsworth would step in and keep things going just as smoothly.

[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - don't do it!

[11:57] Fleep Tuque nods.

[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: lol

[11:57] Fleep Tuque: hehe

[11:57] Joi Koi: lol

[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: A good succession plan

[11:57] Fleep Tuque: Yes, I think we've reached that point in Chilbo now too

[11:58] Cybergrrl Oh: Since I'm hoping to build this community, I want to make sure there is trust here

[11:58] Fleep Tuque: But it was a big fear for a long time and I consider that one of our milestones
[11:58] Fleep Tuque: that we talked about succession, planned for it, enabled it
[11:59] Fleep Tuque: For all of your communities, is there a single central place in SL that is the center?

[11:59] IYan Writer: cybergrrl, re your earlier question re virtual settlements - finally found the article on it: csdl.computer.org/comp/proceedings/hicss/2002/1435/08/14350270b.pdf

[12:00] Cybergrrl Oh: Thank you!

[12:00] Fleep Tuque: Or are any of them diffused on the grid?

[12:00] Crap Mariner: Drabble Writer is my alt = Drabble is a 100 word story. Writer is... um... someone who gets Writer's Block.

[12:00] Alanagh Recreant: need him to keep our finances separate

[12:00] IYan Writer: "Sense of Virtual Community - Maintaining the Experience of Belonging "

[12:00] Cybergrrl Oh: how important is transparency when building community?

[12:00] Alanagh Recreant: because transparency leads to trust

[12:00] Crap Mariner: My communities effectively have no center, just smaller hubs. And they tend to work best that way.

[12:01] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - interesting. Communities can take different shapes, configurations.

[12:01] IYan Writer: rules and etiquette must be transparent, of course

[12:01] Crap Mariner: They work best when nobody's trying to steer them.

[12:01] Fleep Tuque: Hm, that's an interesting model.

[12:01] Alanagh Recreant: I agree Crap

[12:01] Elzbiet Meili: alll depends on the motivation of the community

[12:01] Alanagh Recreant: if there are common values

[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, and before I forget: Inclusion? How do you accommodate at events particularly for different avatars and for people with disabilities such as hearing impairment? Are communities doing this at all?

[12:02] Grace McDunnough: So, I have been a community "leader" and after some time I found it utterly exhausting

[12:02] Crap Mariner: But when someone has an idea, they either bring it up themselves, or they give it to me to package for all to consider and address

[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: Grace - yes, very tiring.
[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: A lot of energy suck

[12:02] IYan Writer: well, accomodation for tiny avatars are a must :)

[12:02] Alanagh Recreant: :)

[12:02] Grace McDunnough: I plan for all but cats

[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: I agree IYan!

[12:02] Crap Mariner: "Hey, let's throw a 3 day party on 5 sims and have live musicians and builds and sponsors and..."

[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll need you to help me figure out the right set up for that!

[12:02] Elzbiet Meili: no cats?
[12:03] Elzbiet Meili: :((

[12:03] Grace McDunnough: Kidding, sorry ^.^

[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: We're getting to the end of our hour.

[12:03] Crap Mariner: you make the spirit of Edloe angry!

[12:03] Elzbiet Meili: hwew

[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: I want to thank you all for being here.
[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: If you have any thoughts to add or if you blog about this at all, please let me know.

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