Post event message from Alanagh Recreant:In African philosophy, siriti means shade or shadow and is seen as the life-force identifying a person... the aura... it is in essence the energy or the power that makes us ourselves and unite us in a personal interaction with people around us...in Second Life, in my opinion... one's seriti (moral weight ...influence) is demonstrated so well because we are all reliant on the character and behaviour of those around us... and many superficial boundaries fall away and we become a community so much more.
Summary Quotes: What is Community?MikeG1 Schumann: The place where everyone knows your name :)
Joi Koi: people comming together for whatever reason.
Elzbiet Meili: an entity in which each person has a sense of purpose and belonging and can look for advise and constructive criticism without fear of being judged.
Crap Mariner: A human network, defined by common interest, purpose, but not always limited by distance. The lack of common interest or familiarity is what is rotting RL community, yet building SL/VL.
Cybergrrl Oh: the cohesion of individuals into a group based on something similar - interest, goal, etc.
IYan Writer: people interacting for a common X (practice, interest, circumstance, change), giving value and receiving it in return
iAlja Writer: people who have something in common and work together for a common goal/idea
First Meeting 12/6/07[11:07] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm going to get started in a few minutes because I know some of you have to run soon
[11:07] Cybergrrl Oh: We'll do some intros, too, so we can all meet new people
[11:07] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll start actually, to get things rolling!
[11:07] Elzbiet Meili: :)
[11:08] Elzbiet Meili: go girl!
[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: So hi everyone - this is part of my great experiment.
[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: Holding an event sending out 1 invite and no reminders - other than IMing Alanagh, that is!
[11:08] Alanagh Recreant smiles
[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm curious to see how many people schedule in events for SL or how many rely on reminders
[11:08] Cybergrrl Oh: But anyway, I'm Cybergrrl Oh and I'm a community builder!
[11:08] iAlja Writer relies on iCal :)
[11:08] IYan Writer claps :)
[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: And a writer, marketer, entrepreneur and all around crazy woman.
[11:09] Elzbiet Meili: crazy is good, we like that here
[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll explain more about this chat after we go around the table. Alanagh, want to go net?
[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: next?
[11:09] Alanagh Recreant: putting me on the spot...
[11:09] Cybergrrl Oh: yeah
[11:09] Alanagh Recreant: I am simplifid complexity.
[11:10] Alanagh Recreant: I am fascinated by sustainability in Africa... and innovation leading there, which brings us to SL.
[11:13] IYan Writer: OK, i'll continue :) iAlja and me are from Artesia - we were always fascinated with virtual communities (for me, it started with BBSes in 1991) and now that they are finally getting some commercia recongnition too, we started a company that helps our clients establish 2D and 3D communities
[11:13] IYan Writer: (of course, when it can be done! )
[11:13] IYan Writer: and we're crazy and can't type, too :D
[11:13] iAlja Writer: I'm also interested in using SL for education - that's how I started here
[11:14] Celebrity Trollop: Well, I have a bunch of communities that I'm trying to build up.
[11:15] Celebrity Trollop: One is Second Style readership. Another is my day job for Millions of Us, and the final one is all of the in-world philanthropy projects I'm engaged with.
[11:16] IYan Writer: ok, short summary: communities, intereted since BBSes, love SL and its potential for community building, embarking on a first SL community project with ialja soon
[11:16] Crap Mariner: Crap Mariner, Podcaster and Writer, working on building cross-podcast content exchanges."Idiot In Chief" of Nowhereville and Edloe Islands. They are co-ownership models with me as the owner on file, but everyone having a stake for full access rights. We discuss and vote on island-wide issues.
[11:17] Elzbiet Meili: HI :)
[11:17] Elzbiet Meili: In first life I'm a grapcs artist, and when I discovered SL last Feb, it consumed me
[11:17] Cybergrrl Oh: consumed, good word
[11:18] Elzbiet Meili: this new form of art, this "game" I could actually call a day job
[11:18] Elzbiet Meili: (still working on how to explain to my parents this one..)
[11:18] Cybergrrl Oh: let me know when you figure that one out
[11:18] IYan Writer: yeah, same here :)
[11:18] Alanagh Recreant smiles
[11:18] Elzbiet Meili: and I fell in with the community here
[11:19] Elzbiet Meili: because, in truth, i was in the midst of a lifestyle change, divorced and all
[11:19] Joi Koi: cheers
[11:19] Elzbiet Meili: woot!
[11:19] Cybergrrl Oh: she's a great builder, and designer.
[11:19] Elzbiet Meili: and anyway, somehow SL gave me a sense of hope for the world that I'd lost in the last few years,
[11:20] Alanagh Recreant: ditto
[11:20] Elzbiet Meili: a place to forget politics and war and make society what we want it to be
[11:20] Cybergrrl Oh: Yes!
[11:20] iAlja Writer nods
[11:20] Elzbiet Meili: sorry, i got carried away
[11:20] Cybergrrl Oh: Passion for something does that to ya
[11:20] Elzbiet Meili: anyway, i'm here for man y reasons... go mike!]
[11:20] MikeG1 Schumann: Let's see...in RL, software developer & writer, lapsed anarchist, my community organizing goes way way back...before this pesky internet stuff...to zine culture for those of you old enough to remember :)
[11:21] Cybergrrl Oh: yay Zines!
[11:21] MikeG1 Schumann: In SL, slowly building up some community on this group of sims...though it's more the benevolent dictator model than co-owners
[11:21] MikeG1 Schumann: So I'm the landlord :)
[11:21] MikeG1 Schumann: And now I'm gonna be afk for a couple minutes dealing with plumbers. Ick.
[11:22] Joi Koi: Hello....community?
[11:22] Crap Mariner snickers at Mike the SL Fascist ;)
[11:23] Joi Koi: In rl I have lived in various communitys, squat, therapeutic, holistic centers now I live alone with my dog although my blood family live nearby
[11:24] Joi Koi: Am interested in like minded peoople althought I treasure healthy skeptism
[11:24] Joi Koi: Enjoying the diversity of SL
[11:25] Cybergrrl Oh: So the reason I wanted to personally invite some great community building minds together is to see if I could build a community of community builders! Like a support group for community junkies and influencers.
[11:25] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, Grace, please introduce yourself
[11:25] Grace McDunnough: / Hello I'm Grace :)
[11:25] Elzbiet Meili: Hi Grace
[11:26] Cybergrrl Oh: Grace is incredibly talented
[11:26] iAlja Writer agrees
[11:26] Crap Mariner: absolutely
[11:26] Joi Koi: Beautiful voice
[11:26] IYan Writer nods
[11:26] Grace McDunnough: /ahem, ok so .... ;-)
[11:26] Cybergrrl Oh: So what else do you do
[11:27] iAlja Writer: don't be distracted by the compliments ;)
[11:27] Crap Mariner: (or the bunny heads)
[11:27] Cybergrrl Oh: We have about 1/2 hour left so I'll dive right in
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: I'd love for everyone to toss out ideas vs. going round the table and let's see what happens.
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm going to pose some questions
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: and just say what comes to mind.
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll go thru and edit the transcript later and share with everyone
[11:28] Alanagh Recreant: a roundtable format :)) great!
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: so if you get lost in the chaos of brilliance, no worries
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: and let's just see where this takes us!
[11:28] iAlja Writer: we're used to that :)
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: First question
[11:28] Elzbiet Meili grins
[11:28] Cybergrrl Oh: What is community?
[11:29] Cybergrrl Oh: don't all yell at once
[11:29] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[11:29] MikeG1 Schumann: The place where everyone knows your name :)
[11:29] Joi Koi: people comming together for whatever reason.
[11:29] Elzbiet Meili: an entity in which each person has a sense of purpose and belonging
[11:29] Crap Mariner: A human network, defined by common interest, purpose, but not always limited by distance.
[11:29] Cybergrrl Oh: the cohesion of individuals into a group based on something similar - interest, goal, etc.
[11:29] IYan Writer: people interacting for a common X (practice, interest, circumstance, change)
[11:30] IYan Writer: giving value and receiving it in return
[11:30] iAlja Writer: people who have something in common and work together for a common goal/idea
[11:30] Elzbiet Meili: ..and can look for advise and constructive criticism without fear of being judged..
[11:30] Crap Mariner: The lack of common interest or familiarity is what is rotting RL community, yet building SL/VL.
[11:30] Cybergrrl Oh: Do we all agree that commonality has to be there?
[11:30] IYan Writer: of course
[11:30] Cybergrrl Oh: some common ground?
[11:30] Elzbiet Meili: Yes
[11:30] iAlja Writer nods
[11:30] Cybergrrl Oh: OK, so how does or how can community start?
[11:30] Elzbiet Meili: There are entirely too many people who think there's nothing to do here
[11:31] Cybergrrl Oh: What is the impetus beyond that common ground? The mechanics of starting it?
[11:31] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz, really?
[11:31] Elzbiet Meili: education
[11:31] iAlja Writer: willingness to collaborate
[11:31] Crap Mariner: It starts with a single bond, I suppose, and builds from there.
[11:31] IYan Writer: with something of value - with somebody giving something for nothing (at least initially)
[11:31] Elzbiet Meili: really.. i have a slew of friends who may not be insta artists or scripters, so got bored quickly
[11:31] Crap Mariner: The tools like twitter or groups or wikis or forums or mailing lists act as the mechanisms for the bond to grow and strengthen
[11:31] Joi Koi: Sharing...taking risks...building trust....thinking beyond oneself
[11:32] IYan Writer: elzbiet: neither am I, but I love SL events (like this one! :) )
[11:32] Crap Mariner: iYan - I agree. Starts with a single act or spark.
[11:32] Alanagh Recreant: in communities without electronic means... there are other tools...
[11:32] Cybergrrl Oh: How critical is it to have a community builder - a "leader" if you will - no matter how informal?
[11:32] Alanagh Recreant: like word of mouth, tradition
[11:33] Crap Mariner: Alanagh - I agree. Churches, community meals, etc. In their absence in SL, other events or mechanisms take their place.
[11:33] Joi Koi: Well leadership is a role so it can pass from person to person....a unified vision maybe
[11:33] Celebrity Trollop: Communities don't stay healthy IMO unless there's someone to do administrative things and make decisions for the collective.
[11:33] Cybergrrl Oh: communication and tools for communication are critical I think
[11:33] MikeG1 Schumann: Even supposedly leaderless commnities tend to develop leaders
[11:33] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb - I agree
[11:33] Elzbiet Meili: I think one, or a few co-leaders.. as long as some one or some group is actually making something happen.
[11:34] Alanagh Recreant: a community builder is not essential....for a community to exist, but it gives direction to the community and purpose
[11:34] iAlja Writer: community leadership doesn't mean making decisions for everyone else
[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm one of those people who hate to rule by committee - so does that kill a community?
[11:34] IYan Writer: leaders are born automatically by the processs of exchanging ideas and viewpoints, i think
[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: so it doesn't take a formal process to be the leader
[11:34] IYan Writer: but community leaders =/= community admins
[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: founding a community - a group - seems to be leading by default
[11:34] Elzbiet Meili: natural selection..
[11:34] iAlja Writer nods
[11:34] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan, true - a leader doesn't necessarily do the maintenance work
[11:35] MikeG1 Schumann: Lots of times the founder gets to be the leader b/c no one else wants to do the *work*
[11:35] Cybergrrl Oh: but a good leader knows how to delegate!
[11:35] Crap Mariner: ultimately, a leader does develop. but the leader can choose to rule by decree or by building consensus
[11:35] MikeG1 Schumann: If they can find suckers ;)
[11:35] Cybergrrl Oh: delegate and also help others to feel invested in the community.
[11:35] Alanagh Recreant laughs
[11:35] Crap Mariner: i prefer to act by building consensus then openly discussing.
[11:35] Joi Koi: I think some of the best leaders do so from beneath, unnoticed, letting the figureheads take the credit.....and the flak :-)
[11:35] IYan Writer: i didn't necessarily mean maintenance work - but the most common fault i've observed with inet communities (forums etc) is that admins automatically think they are community leaders, and enforce their decisions - when in fact, they should only provide a platform
[11:36] Celebrity Trollop: Crap Mariner, Iron Fisted Ruler of Edloe
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - meaning you get everyone to agree with you?
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[11:36] Alanagh Recreant: I could not agree more with you Joi
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: what does consensus building really mean?
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm being serious, too, I'm just not sure
[11:36] Elzbiet Meili: Mike, we don't call them "suckers," we call them "minions"
[11:36] Crap Mariner: Sometimes, yes. But I fidn that if I act in that manner, resentment builds. I prefer to come up with ideas and float them.
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Joi - yes, that's a good point
[11:36] Alanagh Recreant: give-take-live
[11:36] MikeG1 Schumann: It's a fine line, though....some communities are destroyed by leaders not willing to take a stand, and letting troublemakers get away with too much
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - aha, gotcha - good point
[11:36] Crap Mariner: i'll discuss the ideas with folks one-on-one, refining the plan, then presenting it to a whole.
[11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: Put the ideas out there and see how the community reacts and take their input
[11:37] Crap Mariner: troublemakers or exploiters find themselves stomped by the group.
[11:37] MikeG1 Schumann: I'd say one reason mainland SL isn't much inthe way of community is that the Lindens refuse to set much of a standard
[11:37] Crap Mariner: Mainland is anarchy.
[11:37] MikeG1 Schumann: But then I'm a fascist, what do I know? ;)
[11:37] Cybergrrl Oh: OK, Mike, segway into my next question
[11:38] IYan Writer: i actually agree with their position of minimal interferance, mike
[11:38] Joi Koi: Consensus is that like mashing everyones opinions together...give an take...untill a coherent whole is established?
[11:38] Cybergrrl Oh: How is Second Life different for building community online?
[11:38] IYan Writer: i just think they'll be able to hold on to it
[11:38] MikeG1 Schumann: I've seen anarchies that function better than the mainland
[11:38] Alanagh Recreant: Access
[11:38] Fleep Tuque: The mainland is it's own mess of problems, for sure.
[11:38] MikeG1 Schumann: Oh, I like the minimal interference for establishing a platform - I just don't think it establishes a community
[11:38] Crap Mariner: Their position of little interference may be an "unmanaged hosting" position to avoid legal responsibility for content, saves on time policing actively.
[11:38] Cybergrrl Oh: Joi - I am still trying to mentally draw the difference between consensus vs. committee
[11:38] Elzbiet Meili: SL is the essence of "life is what you make it"
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - I think you are right - hands off to avoid legalities
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz - yes, I agree!
[11:39] IYan Writer: i think SL is a qualitative shift in communication among people - it allows tighter interaction, and that is why it's different than 2D tools
[11:39] Crap Mariner: mike - Nessus sim is a mostly Jewish community built around Beth Odets. Mainland, yet very strong. And self-policing.
[11:39] Fleep Tuque: I think the key defining point for consensus is that you don't move on or take any action until EVERYONE agrees they can live with it - even if they don't _like_ it.
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Your Second Life - and your First Life by inevitable connection - is what you make of it here.
[11:39] Fleep Tuque: It implies a level of buy in.
[11:39] Elzbiet Meili: Ind, looking at where we are in a tech point of view, and where the internet is heading... we are the poineers
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - haha, that would kill me to build that kind of consensus.
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm more of a dictator myself
[11:39] Cybergrrl Oh: ;-)
[11:39] Fleep Tuque: We manage it with 50 some people in Chilbo. :)
[11:40] Alanagh Recreant: [11:36] Cybergrrl Oh: give-take-live (agrees with Fleep)
[11:40] Fleep Tuque: It just takes longer.
[11:40] MikeG1 Schumann: But even consensus can be used as a tool to suppress dissent. In some cases it's a way for those with the most staying power to win.
[11:40] IYan Writer: i think that kind of "deep" consensus doesn't scale
[11:40] Fleep Tuque: Well, sometimes the consensus is that some part of the community agrees to leave some things up to other parts of the community. :)
[11:40] Cybergrrl Oh: What communities are you seeing that are thriving?
[11:40] Cybergrrl Oh: So what is working in Second Life?
[11:40] Cybergrrl Oh: That you envy (!) or want to emulate?
[11:40] Crap Mariner: Except that it will come back as whining and bickering later
[11:41] Elzbiet Meili: I've only been here since February, but in my random group experiences, and faces I see over and over again, the circle of "do'ers" is not that big
[11:41] Fleep Tuque: But it's opt out process, by default you're included.
[11:41] Celebrity Trollop: Cybergrrl: Roleplay communities.
[11:41] Crap Mariner: Nessus - Tragically misunderstood artsist / Beth Brown is working, I think.
[11:41] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz - I agree - same observation
[11:41] Crap Mariner: Kindly university appears to be working.
[11:41] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb - that is so interesting about roleplaying communities - I've yet to participate
[11:41] Alanagh Recreant: I think it can scale IYan... because deep consensus forms a platform for further community building, because it rests on principle and values that are agreed-upon
[11:41] Crap Mariner: moo Money's Collins community is not taking off due to her absence.
[11:41] Fleep Tuque: I think the RPG communities seem to be working well, and yes, edus seem to be holding their own but that's comewhat coercive - gotta participate to get a grade.
[11:41] IYan Writer: the problem is that SL enforces small user groups, because of the sim limit
[11:41] Cybergrrl Oh: I think the Metaversed events are very strong - but is there a cohesive community there?
[11:41] IYan Writer: combined with "birds of a feather" syndrome, that explains the same faces
[11:42] Crap Mariner: And Podcast/Podcaster Island is just getting started again
[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan - yeah, limitations of the technology
[11:42] Elzbiet Meili: I feel like I know most of the more active SL'rs, when it comes to making it what it is... take the Dobbs events, for example
[11:42] Fleep Tuque: I know I'm late getting here, but the biggest problem Chilbo is facing
[11:42] Crap Mariner: I do not think Metaversed is a community. Just a broadcast event for the most part.
[11:42] Fleep Tuque: is the "place" problem.
[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Dobbs events, Metaversed events - the bigger communities do see tech or education oriented, don't they?
[11:42] Alanagh Recreant agrees with Crap...
[11:42] Fleep Tuque: What is the tie between the community and the location? Is there any?
[11:42] Fleep Tuque: In a virtual world?
[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - interesting, my thoughts, exactly
[11:42] Cybergrrl Oh: about Metaversed.
[11:42] IYan Writer: great question, fleep
[11:43] Grace McDunnough: I've found location to be important, actually
[11:43] Crap Mariner: Artropolis is also a thriving and expanding community. Filthy Fluno and musicians and artists. Expanding to Blue Fusion IBM Almaden sim
[11:43] Grace McDunnough: People still have a sense of attachment, recognition, etc
[11:43] iAlja Writer: I think SL is great because it gives a very strong feeling of place
[11:43] Cybergrrl Oh: What is missing when you see these big events with great attendance but not a lasting community? Why isn't it translating into community?
[11:43] Alanagh Recreant: I think that is the one thing that makes SL very different, a sense of place
[11:43] Grace McDunnough: Aye
[11:43] Alanagh Recreant: sorry iAlja
[11:43] Alanagh Recreant: lol
[11:43] iAlja Writer: great minds think alike ;)
[11:43] Crap Mariner: Cyb - People tp in and tp out. Nothing bring them there for ad-hoc discussions.
[11:44] Grace McDunnough: Community is about a more lasting engagement on many levels - the big events are more like a one night stand
[11:44] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb - you hold big events and have big Groups. Do you feel you have community there?
[11:44] Grace McDunnough: (not that I've ever had one .. )
[11:44] Crap Mariner: Nessus and the Hobos of Cookie sim have a floating discussion.
[11:44] Fleep Tuque: I think with metaversed, how do we communicate with each other outside of the the synchronous group chat?
[11:44] MikeG1 Schumann: I suspect there are plenty of little residential communities that most people just don't know about - a sim here, a sim there
[11:44] Grace McDunnough agrees with Mike
[11:45] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - true - but how do other groups communicate beyond their weekly or monthly event? What is the GLUE holding them together?
[11:45] Fleep Tuque: There have to be options for synchronous AND asynchronous communication for community to form.
[11:45] Crap Mariner: From what Doc Fran talks about, the Elves/RPG there have that kind of thing going.
[11:45] MikeG1 Schumann: I can usually count on a neighbor or three to hang out with here when I'm in the mood to chat
[11:45] Fleep Tuque: (beyond individual IMs)
[11:45] Alanagh Recreant: come to think of it though... I think Metaversed and those are community facilitators... as they kick-start community formation
[11:45] Cybergrrl Oh: And does size matter? How large does a community have to be before it is "successful?"
[11:45] Grace McDunnough: And we have a great little community in Mystical Cookie's Avendale sim
[11:45] Joi Koi: The Wastelands has a fairly strong community spirit.......kinda /game/roleplay
[11:45] Crap Mariner: Fleep - In Edloe & Nowhereville's case, I suppose it's their undying loyalty to me?
[11:45] Elzbiet Meili: It needs to start at the beginning.
[11:45] Fleep Tuque: hehe
[11:45] Grace McDunnough: (cough)
[11:45] Fleep Tuque: Well, I know about half of you here
[11:45] Fleep Tuque: I consider you my Twitter-SL community
[11:46] Grace McDunnough: ;-)
[11:46] Fleep Tuque: Even if we don't have a name or a place.
[11:46] Crap Mariner: They do so love to beat the bejesus out of me every so often. Sometimes, they take turns.
[11:46] iAlja Writer nods
[11:46] Fleep Tuque: laugh crap!
[11:46] Elzbiet Meili: As an artist, the second I logged in for the firs time I saw a world of possibilities,
[11:46] iAlja Writer: twitter is quite interesting in that sense
[11:46] Cybergrrl Oh: Elz - me too! And I'm not an artist.
[11:46] Fleep Tuque: I think twitter has done more to connect me to the .. larger SL community than ANYTHING in world.
[11:46] Cybergrrl Oh: I was ready to start businesses and build communities.
[11:46] Alanagh Recreant: I think twitter is more a tool... not a community so much...
[11:46] Cybergrrl Oh: Yay for Twitter!
[11:46] Elzbiet Meili: but I think for most people, unless they don't already know somebody, when the orientation is done, the first thing someone thinks is "now what"
[11:46] Fleep Tuque: Hm, good point Alanagh.
[11:46] Crap Mariner: Elz - That sounds an awful lot like Filthy Fluno's mind-blowing immersion in SL.
[11:46] IYan Writer: i don't really like twitter that much
[11:47] IYan Writer cowers
[11:47] Alanagh Recreant: it brings community together, so maybe also a facilitator of community building
[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: Alanagh - I have to say Twitter is my community - the people I follow are truly my community.
[11:47] MikeG1 Schumann: Some people are more naturally twis than others :)
[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: Twitter as a whole is a tool, tho
[11:47] Alanagh Recreant: really?
[11:47] MikeG1 Schumann: twits
[11:47] Fleep Tuque: Hehe it's ok IYan, not all tools work for everyone.
[11:47] Crap Mariner: Twitter can be overwhelming. I'm undergoing Web 2.1 right now, defollowing a bunch of folks to reduce the noise.
[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: Web 2.1 - love it!
[11:47] IYan Writer: a) open to google search (unlike facebook), b) prone to floods
[11:47] iAlja Writer: IYan - you're not using it
[11:47] Crap Mariner: And, yet, for the most part, i *am* noise.
[11:47] IYan Writer: because i don0t like it, ialja
[11:47] Joi Koi: http://twitter.com/joikoi come in its open ;-)
[11:47] Fleep Tuque: I think I take comfort in the twitter noise stream, it tells me the community is there even when I'm not
[11:47] Cybergrrl Oh: I tap into Twitter several times a day like a person walks to the watercooler in an office or sits down with a friend
[11:47] Grace McDunnough: Don't make me separate you two
[11:47] Fleep Tuque: Stuff is happening
[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: http://twitter.com/alizasherman
[11:48] iAlja Writer: it gets better when you find cool people to follow :)
[11:48] Alanagh Recreant: Cybergrrl, then I suppose it depends on your permissions in twitter... how you choose to use the tool?
[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm very ... self-revealing on twitter.
[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: just to warn you
[11:48] Fleep Tuque: Yes me too, Cybergrrl, dont read everything I couldn't keep up!
[11:48] Alanagh Recreant: http://twitter.com/meerkatje
[11:48] Elzbiet Meili: http://twitter.com/elzbiet
[11:48] Fleep Tuque: http://twitter.com/fleep
[11:48] Elzbiet Meili: except I never remember to use it
[11:48] IYan Writer: i'm more of a pull guy than a push guy
[11:48] Cybergrrl Oh: Alanagh- yes, how you use Twitter - like any of the tools - depends on how you use them
[11:48] Grace McDunnough makes another IYan note
[11:48] iAlja Writer: http://twitter.com/iAlja
[11:48] Fleep Tuque: And sorry didnt mean to turn the conversation to twitter
[11:48] Crap Mariner: http://twitter.com/isfullofcrap
[11:48] Alanagh Recreant adds twits
[11:48] Fleep Tuque: its just that it's been so useful to me in building what I consider MY SL community
[11:48] MikeG1 Schumann: http://twitter.com/MikeG1
[11:48] Fleep Tuque: broader than any single in world group.
[11:49] IYan Writer: argh! at the onrez browser (and your URLs)
[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: So what am I missing? What haven't I asked yet about community?
[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: How about tell us about the community you are trying to build.
[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: Celeb, like me, has more than one
[11:49] IYan Writer: i think that the distinction virtual community / virtual settloement is important
[11:49] Cybergrrl Oh: But what is your ultimate goal?
[11:49] IYan Writer: for example, metaversed has a settlement
[11:49] Grace McDunnough: Agreed, IYan
[11:50] Cybergrrl Oh: settlement?
[11:50] Cybergrrl Oh: explain?
[11:50] Crap Mariner: Goal?
[11:50] Fleep Tuque: My project is Chilbo, the Chilbo Community Building Project, http://chilbo.org
[11:50] Fleep Tuque: Outside of my professional SL activities.
[11:50] Alanagh Recreant: we are building a RL community connected to SL
[11:50] Fleep Tuque: We have a goal statement, regular meetings, a blog, and of course a home sim.
[11:50] Alanagh Recreant: in Africa
[11:50] Alanagh Recreant: and vice versa
[11:50] Celebrity Trollop: http://twitter.com/slfashionista
[11:51] Cybergrrl Oh: I'm building 4 communities and a subset - this one, Community Builders in Virtual Worlds; Second Life Entrepreneurs Club; Second Life Writers Club; Second Life Women's Club and Moms in Second Life.
[11:51] Cybergrrl Oh: My goals are part selfish, part altruistic
[11:51] Crap Mariner: I have smaller goals and projects, but no overwhelming underlying goal, I suppose.
[11:51] Fleep Tuque: (Group limits really suck, if that hasn't already been said.)
[11:51] Cybergrrl Oh: I really want to be a part of these communities, learn and share.
[11:51] Crap Mariner: The group limit just makes people realize that there's better ways to manage a community - group blog, RSS feeds, google calendars, drupal, etc.
[11:52] Grace McDunnough: I ran a poetry group for nearly a year, it was a rather vibrant community - we were simply there for each other - then we hit a tipping point
[11:52] IYan Writer: fleep: i actually think they are good - dunbar number etc - they artificially force smaller, tighter groups
[11:52] Cybergrrl Oh: And I want to be able to leverage them to build my "reputation" as a community builder and to help companies and nonprofits tap into vibrant communities for mutual benefit - for the company and for the group
[11:52] Grace McDunnough: people came in and wnated to "be famous"
[11:52] Crap Mariner: TIPPING POINT - Every group hits a deathspin eventually, right?
[11:52] Grace McDunnough: Suddenly, the community was malaligned
[11:52] Fleep Tuque: IYan, not when most of your groups are taken up for practical things like land management for work.
[11:52] Cybergrrl Oh: Deathspin?
[11:52] Fleep Tuque: Eek Grace
[11:52] Grace McDunnough: If you are not familiar with the Dunbar numner theory, I recommend a read
[11:52] Grace McDunnough: *number
[11:52] Fleep Tuque: that sounds like a tough thing to deal with
[11:52] IYan Writer: oh, group limit, sorry, i read sim limit
[11:52] Crap Mariner: When the community stops being about their common interest and it focuses solely on the members and the mechanisms of administrering the group.
[11:53] IYan Writer: (grace has a great blog summary on it)
[11:53] IYan Writer: (plug!)
[11:53] Celebrity Trollop: Celeb - you hold big events and have big Groups. Do you feel you have community there?
[11:53] Fleep Tuque: Will have to look for that and read it
[11:53] Cybergrrl Oh: What is the URL?
[11:53] Grace McDunnough: Oh, haha, thanks IYan
[11:53] Celebrity Trollop: So I was asked while I was working elsewhere
[11:53] Cybergrrl Oh: multitasking maven that Celeb is!
[11:53] Fleep Tuque: hehe
[11:53] Celebrity Trollop: I think so - it's not as cohesive though, because the common interest in the case of MOU is not as shared as it is say for pixel fashion.
[11:54] Grace McDunnough: http://phasinggrace.blogspot.com/2007/08/dunbars-number-groups-in-second-life.html
[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: I was asking if she thought she had communities
[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: or just groups with big numbers
[11:54] Alanagh Recreant: Crap... the tough thing is when resources are limited... irl, then community-building is either stunted or enhanced... it is an interesting dynamic
[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: This is really great info and discussion - I really appreciate you all being here.
[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: What about trust?
[11:54] Fleep Tuque: I mentioned this at one of your sessions Cybergrrll
[11:54] Cybergrrl Oh: Where does trust come in with community?
[11:54] Celebrity Trollop: We've been working on that MOU problem by introducing programs like our community land grant programs and other things like that.
[11:54] Fleep Tuque: I think one key measure of community success
[11:54] Fleep Tuque: is if the leader or founder or impetus disappears, does the thing continue.
[11:54] Alanagh Recreant: we build community via mobile currently... a whole different dynamic
[11:54] Fleep Tuque: If not, then it isn't a community, it's just a cult. :)
[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Fleep - yes
[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Cult of personality
[11:55] Fleep Tuque nods.
[11:55] IYan Writer: if the impetus disappears, do we still have a community left?
[11:55] Crap Mariner: Limiting a resource presents a challenge to the community to develop alternatives.
[11:55] Fleep Tuque: Well, everyone changes and grows, and communities ideally do too, right?
[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Right - Celeb asked this at a panel I sat on recently
[11:55] Grace McDunnough: (now has that song stuck in her head, thanks Cybergrrl)
[11:55] Fleep Tuque: If they are _real_ relationships that form
[11:55] iAlja Writer: definitely Fleep
[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: If the "leader" leaves does the community fail?
[11:55] Alanagh Recreant smiles
[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: and if not, why/how not?
[11:55] Cybergrrl Oh: Grace - love that song!
[11:56] Grace McDunnough: Leaders are terribly important, are they not?
[11:56] Fleep Tuque: That's my biggest fear for Chilbo, if I got hit by a bus tomorrow and it just died, I'd feel that it was a failure.
[11:56] Crap Mariner: When I jokingly called myself Cult Leader Of Edloe, Prokofy jumped on that term big time. Yeah, it's a helpful mechanism for keeping folks together, everybody has a tie back to a central hub, but you get a more stable community when the bonds are foged between the rest of the membership.
[11:56] Grace McDunnough: The big question becomes - is the community about the leader, or the cause/goals
[11:56] Fleep Tuque: Agree, Crap
[11:56] IYan Writer: i think the creators can foster the environment that enables generation of new leaders
[11:56] Crap Mariner: Or you build the community out of existing smaller networks into a major network.
[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: The community should be about the common goals - but often the leader becomes the GLUE
[11:57] Fleep Tuque: Those side bonds matter, if you know everyone, but everyone doesn't know each other, then that's not really community either.
[11:57] IYan Writer: but the creators themselves should soon distance themselves from the leadership role.. like LL in SL
[11:57] MikeG1 Schumann: Yes, setting up the right conditions to let things grow naturally is where a good leader invests time
[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: IYan, yes or they risk Founders Syndrome
[11:57] Crap Mariner: If I were to put a .22 in my head right now, I believe Razzap/Cogsworth would step in and keep things going just as smoothly.
[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - don't do it!
[11:57] Fleep Tuque nods.
[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[11:57] Fleep Tuque: hehe
[11:57] Joi Koi: lol
[11:57] Cybergrrl Oh: A good succession plan
[11:57] Fleep Tuque: Yes, I think we've reached that point in Chilbo now too
[11:58] Cybergrrl Oh: Since I'm hoping to build this community, I want to make sure there is trust here
[11:58] Fleep Tuque: But it was a big fear for a long time and I consider that one of our milestones
[11:58] Fleep Tuque: that we talked about succession, planned for it, enabled it
[11:59] Fleep Tuque: For all of your communities, is there a single central place in SL that is the center?
[11:59] IYan Writer: cybergrrl, re your earlier question re virtual settlements - finally found the article on it: csdl.computer.org/comp/proceedings/hicss/2002/1435/08/14350270b.pdf
[12:00] Cybergrrl Oh: Thank you!
[12:00] Fleep Tuque: Or are any of them diffused on the grid?
[12:00] Crap Mariner: Drabble Writer is my alt = Drabble is a 100 word story. Writer is... um... someone who gets Writer's Block.
[12:00] Alanagh Recreant: need him to keep our finances separate
[12:00] IYan Writer: "Sense of Virtual Community - Maintaining the Experience of Belonging "
[12:00] Cybergrrl Oh: how important is transparency when building community?
[12:00] Alanagh Recreant: because transparency leads to trust
[12:00] Crap Mariner: My communities effectively have no center, just smaller hubs. And they tend to work best that way.
[12:01] Cybergrrl Oh: Crap - interesting. Communities can take different shapes, configurations.
[12:01] IYan Writer: rules and etiquette must be transparent, of course
[12:01] Crap Mariner: They work best when nobody's trying to steer them.
[12:01] Fleep Tuque: Hm, that's an interesting model.
[12:01] Alanagh Recreant: I agree Crap
[12:01] Elzbiet Meili: alll depends on the motivation of the community
[12:01] Alanagh Recreant: if there are common values
[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: Oh, and before I forget: Inclusion? How do you accommodate at events particularly for different avatars and for people with disabilities such as hearing impairment? Are communities doing this at all?
[12:02] Grace McDunnough: So, I have been a community "leader" and after some time I found it utterly exhausting
[12:02] Crap Mariner: But when someone has an idea, they either bring it up themselves, or they give it to me to package for all to consider and address
[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: Grace - yes, very tiring.
[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: A lot of energy suck
[12:02] IYan Writer: well, accomodation for tiny avatars are a must :)
[12:02] Alanagh Recreant: :)
[12:02] Grace McDunnough: I plan for all but cats
[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: I agree IYan!
[12:02] Crap Mariner: "Hey, let's throw a 3 day party on 5 sims and have live musicians and builds and sponsors and..."
[12:02] Cybergrrl Oh: I'll need you to help me figure out the right set up for that!
[12:02] Elzbiet Meili: no cats?
[12:03] Elzbiet Meili: :((
[12:03] Grace McDunnough: Kidding, sorry ^.^
[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: lol
[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: We're getting to the end of our hour.
[12:03] Crap Mariner: you make the spirit of Edloe angry!
[12:03] Elzbiet Meili: hwew
[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: I want to thank you all for being here.
[12:03] Cybergrrl Oh: If you have any thoughts to add or if you blog about this at all, please let me know.
